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Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:41 am |
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Gtane |
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Joined: 14 Sep 2007 |
Posts: 681 |
Location: UK |
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For me, the conclusion is still up in the air but the information combined makes for interesting perspectives.
Scott, you're right about the materials, people and frame building, and who made what, when and where. That's a grey area for the complete picture although we have some info. for some of the story.
Wisey, thanks for the info. on the other pro machines. It shows that at the end of the day, teams will use the very best they can for the job in hand.
Tim |
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_________________ Everything has a cycle |
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Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:07 am |
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verktyg |
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Joined: 14 Jan 2007 |
Posts: 2814 |
Location: SF Bay Area |
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Many of us collectors tend to be pure hearted idealists searching for the golden mean!
In reality, much of professional cycling and professional sports in general is about advertising.
The Tour de France was created in 1903 to promote the daily sports paper, L'Auto.
Since the beginning of the sport, bike makers have used racing to promote their products and sponsors have used the activities to hawk their goods.
There was a period of time that all TdF riders used identical bikes (except for size) that were produced by a single maker.
There has been a tradition since at least the mid 60s of top riders using custom built frames that were not necessarily built by the team's sponsor they were riding for.
Tommy Simpson and later Eddy Merckx rode "off the shelf" Peugeot PX-10s but later Simpson had custom made bikes decked out in Peugeot colors.
Luis Ocaña won the 1973 TdF on a Motobecane or Motobecanes made by Gemini.
Eddy Merckx rode who knows what??? Lemond Team Z bikes were made by Roland Della Santa in Reno, Nevada and also by Billato in Italy plus others.
A French constructeur B. Carre built many of Lejeune's top models and their racing frames.
Many well known Italian frame makers routinely farmed business to other makers. Masi frames were made by a lot of different folks.
The US cyclists and teams of the 80s competing internationally rode such a mix that who knows who was on what and who built the frame???
Several well known NorCal frame builders clandestinely built frames for a number of world class riders.
The list goes on and it's interesting to find out these little tidbits, it's like sharing gossip!
But, this kind of information shouldn't diminish our appreciation of our classic steel steeds. It's interesting sleuth work that adds to the fun of this pastime. |
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Last edited by verktyg on Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:48 am; edited 1 time in total _________________ Chas.
SF Bay Area, CA USA
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1984 Criterium
1969 TdF
1971 TdF
1974 TdF
1984 TdF x 2 Bikes
1970 SC
1971 SC
1972 SC
1984 SC
1984 Team Pro
1985 Professional
1990s Team Replica |
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Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:27 am |
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sandranian |
Site Admin |
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Joined: 27 Feb 2006 |
Posts: 2701 |
Location: Southern California |
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Interesting discussion no doubt. I am very "prickly" about it, as I am sick of running into the people on the road who are certain that the pros are riding on bikes that have some sort of secret magic that makes them go faster than other bikes. I am esp. sick of the people who "know" that Della Santa built all of Lemond's pro bikes, including his Gitanes. That is patently bullsh*t, for lack of a better term. As Roger Young put it to me: "Can you imagine Hinault and the best pro team in the world allowing some American to ride on his own..personally made American bike?" In 1982...no way.
I know that pro bikes are different in many cases: For example, the Quick-Step team Specialized bikes from two years ago were actually a full pound HEAVIER than the ones available at your LBS. Stiffer bottom bracket...stiffer frame...more material = better ride. (The team's spare bikes were part of a sponsorship deal for a local masters team in the area, complete with the pros names still on them).
Don't these silly people understand: The magic has been injected, not welded! |
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Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:52 am |
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verktyg |
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Joined: 14 Jan 2007 |
Posts: 2814 |
Location: SF Bay Area |
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sandranian wrote: |
Don't these silly people understand: The magic has been injected, not welded! |
Do You mean... DOPING?
It's always been about the motor not the machine.
Many "Team" bikes from the 70s were made of slightly heavier tubing to survive crashes and mishandling by the support personnel. In addition, they were frequently passed down to second tier teams for use the next season.
I've always been put off by fashionista raceurs who desperately had to have the latest components or equipment with the hope that it would would make them faster.
"It never gets easier, you just go faster." Greg LeMond
BTW, Della Santa did make various frames for LeMond over the years. He was located in Reno, Nevada, LeMond's home town! But as you say, probably none were ever badged Gitane.
Once you work out your frame geometry and tubing dimensions, it doesn't matter much WHO built the frame as long as they employed good workmanship!
I was told that Della Santa never made more than 12 or 13 Team Z frames for LeMond. GL didn't take delivery of a number of them and they were eventually sold off to individuals.
I had a chance to buy the last of these. It was unpainted but had complete documentation and provenance (I passed on it because I didn't need an expensive wall hanging that I'd have to spend another $800+ to get properly painted).
Della Santa started to make Team Z replicas for LeMond but production switched to Billato in Italy who also made high quality production frames for many of the most famous Italian marques.
Quite a few premium Italian frames were brought into the US unpainted and finished here. 10 Speed drive in Florida ran a lot of these through their shop. And, as I mentioned before, some of the sanctified Masi frames were made by a number of different builders, both in Italy and the US.
In the Northeast US there are signs on old houses that date to colonial times saying: "George Washington once slept here".
Campagnolo has NEVER made everything they've sold!
There is no Santa Claus!
Here's a bit of irony, I've seen a number of Peugeot track bikes from the early 70s that were actually Gitane Super Pistas in Peugeot colors!
So enjoy the mystery and intrigue! |
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Last edited by verktyg on Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:45 am; edited 1 time in total _________________ Chas.
SF Bay Area, CA USA
==============
1984 Criterium
1969 TdF
1971 TdF
1974 TdF
1984 TdF x 2 Bikes
1970 SC
1971 SC
1972 SC
1984 SC
1984 Team Pro
1985 Professional
1990s Team Replica |
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Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:51 pm |
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Wisey |
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Joined: 19 May 2009 |
Posts: 631 |
Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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verktyg wrote: |
There is no Santa Claus!
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Whaddya mean there's no f........g Santa Claus? I know for certain that there is. He even rides a gitane.
See?
(ok, so that's not actually a gitane, but I've seen Santa's garage, and he's got a few) |
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_________________ Kind Regards,
Wisey
Delta Dreamin' |
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:58 am |
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lofter |
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:59 am |
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lofter |
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Joined: 05 Mar 2006 |
Posts: 1162 |
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he even gets u presents every now and then. |
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Advertising! | | | | | |
Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:13 pm |
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Troy71 |
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006 |
Posts: 44 |
Location: Germany |
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verktyg wrote: |
Tommy Simpson and later Eddy Merckx rode "off the shelf" Peugeot PX-10s but later Simpson had custom made bikes decked out in Peugeot colors.
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a hello to everybody
after a long time i look into the forum.
William Fotheringham wrote in his Tom Simpson Bio that Tom rode a Masi with Peugeot decals. |
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:40 am |
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nicolas |
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006 |
Posts: 543 |
Location: Paris, France |
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It's funny, the first time I heard about an athlete re-spraying his tool for sponsoring reasons was André Agassi when he was sponsored by french brand Donnay. It was supposed to be crap. |
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