gitaneusa.com Forum Index » Vintage Gitane » 1987 Gitane Record Goto page 1, 2  Next    View previous topic :: View next topic  1987 Gitane Record   Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:46 pm Signals Joined: 10 Apr 2010 Posts: 10 Location: New York, NY Back in 1991, I acquired a 1987 Gitane Record that had barely been ridden and rode it with pride through around 2000. Since then, it was poorly strored and, unfortunately, was exposed to the elements one too many times. I've finally decided to show this 1987 Record some restorative love, and it would be great to get some advice from you all on a few of the details before I start. My current goal is to "modernize" the bike; I plan is to keep all the original parts in storage and may at some point but it all back into it's original configuration, but for the time being, I want to convert the bars, controls (hoods, brake levers, gear shifts), saddle and pedals to a modern set up. As you can see from the photos posted here, the bike needs some TLC, but it features an interesting combination of originally spec'd parts (per the Gitane catalogues from that time period) and some choice replacements. A few highlights are: - Reynolds 501cs steel tubing - Vitus dropouts - Mavic GEL 280 rims - Maillard 500 hubs - Campagnolo front and rear derailleur - Belleri bars and stem - Stronglite crankset w/ 170mm arms - Weinmann Prestige 405 brakes - DiaComp hoods and levers As I roll up my sleeves to get this project going, I have a few key questions that I would really appreciate some guidance and/advice on. Here goes it: 1) Headset: the existing headset is fairly rusted and needs to be replaced. Given that I plan to put a contemporary fork on the front end, I could use some advice on what types of headsets I can use in the headtube of the Record. It would be great to know the headtube sizing, if anyone has a solid answer on that. 2) Bottom bracket: I've worked on the bottom bracket a few times, but it too is shot at this point, and needs to be replaced. And ultimately, I need 175 crank arms, so I am thinking of swapping out the Stronglite set with something contemporary. Again, any idea what sizing I am working with here for the bottom bracket tubing? I really could use advice on product selection here...what cranks and bottom bracket would work for this frame? 3) Maillard hubs: So, all I know about these is what it says on them: "Maillard 500". But, I have no idea if the freewheel design on these is of the Helicomatic variety or a more accepted standard. Any info here? I would love to keep these hubs and build a new wheelset around them, but fear that it will not be worth the headache of getting tools and parts that will work with them. 4) Campy rear derailleur: Having trouble identifying the model of this rear Campy part. I beleive I've seen a few references to '87 models coming with Veloce drivetrains at some point, but not at all sure. If any of you can assist with ID'ing this part, that would be great. I'd like to overhaul it and keep running it, as it still working fairly well. Thanks in advance to any of you who take pity on me and guide me in the right direction. All advice appreciated. And if you just feel like giving a shout out, and sharing images of your Gitane Record from the same period, that would be great too! : )   Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:35 pm Signals Joined: 10 Apr 2010 Posts: 10 Location: New York, NY Here are some additional photos of the '87 Gitane Record I posted about above...the lug work on this frame is surprisingly well done for a mass production bike:   Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:39 am scozim Joined: 26 Sep 2008 Posts: 629 Location: Ellensburg, WA Nice looking bike. The freewheel doesn't look like a helicomatic - in fact, that's some seriously tight gearing (also referred to as a corncob). Personally, I'd leave the bars alone, repack the bearings in the hub and get a better geared freewheel. The Mavic wheels are super lightweight. I run Wolber Aspin (345 g or so) on the rear of my TdF and a Mavic 280 on the front. Keep the tubulars, though - it's a great ride. If you have to change the bottom bracket out look for another square taper unit. I believe Chas would tell you the spindle length for the Stronglight double crankset should be 118mm. You can go to a cartridge bottom bracket also with a square taper but know that many will have a different taper than your crank (JIS vs. ISO). Finally, I'd look for different brakes. While the Weinmann's are ok I've had a lot of problems with the adjustment barrel on the two bikes of mine that have 405's. I switched to Modolo brakes (via ebay) on one of the bikes and like them much better. I also bought a set of Sachs New Success brakes on ebay for dirt cheap ($16) that look great as well. Scott _________________ 1984 Gitane Sprint 1984 Gitane Tour de France mid-1970's Gitane Olympic Plus many more http://eburgcycling.blogspot.com   Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:31 pm Signals Joined: 10 Apr 2010 Posts: 10 Location: New York, NY scozim wrote: Nice looking bike. The freewheel doesn't look like a helicomatic - in fact, that's some seriously tight gearing (also referred to as a corncob). If you have to change the bottom bracket out look for another square taper unit. I believe Chas would tell you the spindle length for the Stronglight double crankset should be 118mm. You can go to a cartridge bottom bracket also with a square taper but know that many will have a different taper than your crank (JIS vs. ISO). Scott Hey, Scott - thanks so much for your detailed advice many months back. I've finally gotten this project back on track, but still struggling with the bottom bracket restoration. Namely, I'm trying to get more information about the bottom bracket tube sizing and whether there are any bottom brackets readily available on the market that would work with this frame and a 1988 Stronglight Pedelier crankset. Here is roughly the crankset I have: http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemId=25866 The serial number on the frame starts with "UK", which makes me think it was originally manufactured for the UK market. If that is the case, does that have any potential bearing on the threading and size of the bottom bracket tube? Gitane Record   Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:44 am verktyg Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 2814 Location: SF Bay Area Nice bike. Since it's a 1987 model the headset, bottom bracket and freewheel "should" all have British threads. As Scott mentioned it should clean up nicely with a little elbow grease. 3XXX steel wool will take off a lot of the rust on the chrome parts. If you want to replace the headset, Tange Levin is a nice headset that you can find on eBay for $20-$30. They are available with 2 sizes on crown races - 26.4mm and 27mm. Your fork may take the 26.4mm crown race. You have to take it off and measure the fork. While you have the fork out and the headset apart, It's a good idea to have the fork and head tube refaced by someone COMPETENT with the right tools. You mentioned that you want to put on a "modern" fork. My first question is why? Putting a Carbon Fiber Reinforced Plastic fork on an old steel frame is real trendy but may not buy you much in ride comfort or handling. Changing to a "carbon" fork can be a lot more work that it looks like. You have to get a new headset and have it fitted plus the new fork may radically change the bike's handling in a negative way by changing the head tube angle. It also entails a new stem and most likely bars. In messing around with derailleur bikes for close to 50 years, I've only seen a few fork failures on steel forks. They were either on cheap bikes or the result of a previous accident or due to having the stem too high. Over the past 6 years since I got back into biking, I've seen dozens of carbon fork failures! You can buy a number of different British thread sealed bearing bottom brackets that will fit your frame. Many of them are symmetrical - they stick out an equal distance on both sides of the BB. The Stronglight crank that you have takes a 118mm asymmetrical BB spindle that is longer on the right side. Why do you want a 175mm crank? They are only 5mm (0.19685") longer than a standard 170mm crank! Shoe sole thickness can make a bigger difference! Most of my bikes have 170mm cranks but I have a few with 172.5mm and 175mm crank arms. I can't tell the difference. I've found that one of my bikes had a 170mm arm on one side and one 175mm on the other. I used to use 180mm cranks on my off road bike and I could tell a slight difference. I had chronic knee problems and I experimented with crank arm lengths a lot. Getting back to your Stronglight crank, it takes obsolete 122mm BCD chainrings that are still available in some sizes on eBay. You could also buy a new Sugino or similar crankset with standard 130mm or 110mm industry standard chainrings and a sealed BB spindle. Hubs, they are standard quality. Your frame most likely has a 126mm wide rear triangle. Most new wheel sets have 130mm wide rear hubs and take cassettes rather than freewheels. If you go that way, you need to have the rear triangle spread out 4mm and realigned so the the bike tracks straight. The rest of the stuff is your call although I really like the Shimano 105 dual pivot brakes. They can cause retinal detachment when you lock them up! One other thing to consider, you can clean this bike up and ride it pretty much like it is. For what you are looking to do in modernizing it, your likely to be spending $300 to $600! You can get a brand new bike with all of the bells a whistles for less money than modernizing this one. BTW, I've never cared for "brifters" - brake lever shifters. When they work they're great but they're fragile and difficult or impossible to repair so you end up buying a new lever for an exorbitant amount of money! _________________ Chas. SF Bay Area, CA USA ============== 1984 Criterium 1969 TdF 1971 TdF 1974 TdF 1984 TdF x 2 Bikes 1970 SC 1971 SC 1972 SC 1984 SC 1984 Team Pro 1985 Professional 1990s Team Replica Re: Gitane Record   Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:30 am Signals Joined: 10 Apr 2010 Posts: 10 Location: New York, NY Thanks so much, Chas, for taking some time out to weigh in here! I'm psyched that I have finally gotten around to working on this thing. My mindset has changed since my initial post; now that I have dismantled the bike and have been cleaning up the individual parts, I am now motivated to try to keep as many original parts as is reasonable, so things like the 501cs fork, the Belleri bars and the Stronglight crankset are staying. The whole bit about the carbon fork was because I had a 1" carbon steerer fork from another bike laying around, and thought I'd put it to use. As for the crank arm length, I totally hear you: 170 is just fine! My obsession with the arm length stems from my past as a triathlete, where your position on the bike is significantly affected by subtle changes like crank arm length. A few additional questions (can't guarantee that will be all! ; ): 1) Given that I want to use the original Stronglight Pedelier crankset, can you guys recommend any specific ASYMMETRICAL sealed bottom brackets that would be readily available? 2) I have 1" Chris King headset from 2002. Is it possible that this might work on this frame and with the original fork? Re: Gitane Record   Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:17 am verktyg Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 2814 Location: SF Bay Area Signals wrote: A few additional questions (can't guarantee that will be all! ; ): 1) Given that I want to use the original Stronglight Pedelier crankset, can you guys recommend any specific ASYMMETRICAL sealed bottom brackets that would be readily available? 2) I have 1" Chris King headset from 2002. Is it possible that this might work on this frame and with the original fork? The absolute best (and most expensive) would be a Phil Wood bottom bracket. You need to get at least one of their BB tools too. Two of them work better. The VeloOrange sealed BB are symmetrical but you may get by with one of them. They now have a 118mm wide one but you might get a better fit with the 122mm BB. I've used Shimano sealed bearing BB too. All the stuff about Campy, ISO and JIS taper is a bunch of bunk! If it fits, it works! There are a number of others such as IRD that make these kinds of cartridge BBs too. You will need to get a BB tool that works with Shimano BBs with most of these cartridges. http://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbtaper.html Sheldon (RIP) Brown wrote: "I generally avoid mixing sizes on customers' bikes, but I have a lot of experience mixing ISO/J.I.S. in both directions on my own personal bikes, and it as never given me a lick of trouble." My experience too! Headsets: Scroll down to the last message in this post, it covers headset stack height issues. Your headset may have about a 33mm stack height. The Chris King headset is likely going to have around a 40+mm stack height. http://www.gitaneusa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1815&highlight=stack+heighth+height Last thing, that Campy derailleur may look "prurty" but it probably shifts just as poorly as the Nuovo Record derailleurs. Look for a rear derailleur with a dropped parallel design like a Suntour or Shimano or even a Simplex SX610. After 1988 Campy gave up on their lame attempts to beat Shimano and switched to that design too! A lot of the new derailleurs are made for use with 9, 10 or 11 speed chains and cassettes. The cage on these is sometimes too narrow to work well with older chains and freewheels. Campy Nuovo Record - based on a 1951 design! (Your derailleur is based on this design too) Campagnolo post 1989 Chorus derailleur with a dropped or slant parallelogram. Original Suntour V derailleur from the early 70s. These sold for $7.00 and would out shift the $30-$40 Campy NR rear derailleurs all day, every day! I like these Shimano 105 rear derailleurs from the late 80s. They are robust and can shift up to a 32T sprocket. They work well with friction or index shifting. (note, the top pulley on used ones is frequently worn out and needs to be replaced to shift well) Simplex SX610 derailleur. These and the less expensive SX410 derailleurs work very well. I have an SX610 derailleur index shifting a 8 speed cassette on one of my bikes! Notice, I haven't mentioned any weight weenie rear derailleurs. I like things that work well and don't require constant fiddling with! The Campy front derailleurs from the last 60 years worked fine (except for the cheapest models). _________________ Chas. SF Bay Area, CA USA ============== 1984 Criterium 1969 TdF 1971 TdF 1974 TdF 1984 TdF x 2 Bikes 1970 SC 1971 SC 1972 SC 1984 SC 1984 Team Pro 1985 Professional 1990s Team Replica   Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:54 am Signals Joined: 10 Apr 2010 Posts: 10 Location: New York, NY This is fantastic advice, and very interesting as well. Thanks so much. One thing I'm a bit confused about: the asymmetrical nature of the Stronglight crankset... Can I use a symetrical BB? Are there any asymmetric BB's available on the market? What is the downside of installing a symmetrical unit with this particular crankset?   Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:38 pm verktyg Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 2814 Location: SF Bay Area Signals wrote: One thing I'm a bit confused about: the asymmetrical nature of the Stronglight crankset... Can I use a symetrical BB? Are there any asymmetric BB's available on the market? What is the downside of installing a symmetrical unit with this particular crankset? Asymmetrical bottom bracket spindles are longer on the chainring end. They extend further out of the fixed cup side to allow for clearance between the chainstay and the chainrings. That's the way that most cranksets were made until the 1980s when they changed the design of many right crank arms to use a symmetrical spindle. There were several issues that went all the way back to the early days of cycling. The British used internal gear hubs like Sturmey-Archer 3 speeds or single speed gearing. The French on the other hand preferred multi cog derailleur gearing. It rains a lot in the UK so internal gearing made more sense! Back then chains were wider and had very little lateral flex. The cycling world was concerned with "friction" and the energy lost through it. The French called internal gear hubs "friction boxes" and the British had their own descriptions for derailleur gearing. The British were obsessed with having the proper "chain line" to reduce friction so the chainring and rear sprocket had to be aligned parallel to each other. The chain line could be adjusted by using a longer or shorter BB spindle. As derailleurs improved in the 1950s and 60s they took over the world of sport and performance cycling. In the 70s chainstays became shorter on sporting bikes and the number of rear sprockets increased from 5 to 6. In the late 70s, chains with some lateral flex became the norm. That reduced many chain line issues. Modern chains for 9-10-11 speed gears are extremely flexible. Second issue with BB spindle width is something called the "Q-factor". It's is the width between the pedal attachment points on the outsides of the crank arms. The usual range is between 4" for track bikes and 7" for MTBs. A longer BB spindle will increase the Q-factor while a shorter one will reduce it. A wider spindle will reduce the pedal to ground clearance when pedaling through a sharp turn. This shouldn't be much of a problem except in criterium racing. I once hit a pedal on the ground as I was pedaling hard through a sharp corner and it threw me over the bars! Ergonomics gurus and bike fit nazis contend that the Q-factor should be as narrow as possible. I contend that it should be comfortable! Most riders are not Cat 1 racers! Stand straight up in a normal stance. Look down at the distance between your feet. That will give you an idea of what your Q-factor is (it can vary several inches). Look this over, it explains most of what I said: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbsize.html Then check this one out: http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/bottombrackets.html#shimano And yes, you can use a symmetrical BB spindle as long as there is enough clearance between the chainrings and the chainstay. It may throw your Q-factor off a tiny bit but the human body is amazingly adaptive! I'd suggest a 122mm or 123mm wide asymmetrical if you went that way. YMMV _________________ Chas. SF Bay Area, CA USA ============== 1984 Criterium 1969 TdF 1971 TdF 1974 TdF 1984 TdF x 2 Bikes 1970 SC 1971 SC 1972 SC 1984 SC 1984 Team Pro 1985 Professional 1990s Team Replica   Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:34 am Signals Joined: 10 Apr 2010 Posts: 10 Location: New York, NY Are there any asymmetric BB's available on the market?   Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:08 am verktyg Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 2814 Location: SF Bay Area Signals wrote: Are there any asymmetric BB's available on the market? Don't know, you'll have to search. Did you check out the Sheldon Brown web sites I posted links to? Most of the square ended Shimano BB cartridges were asymmetric. Harris Cyclery still lists the 68mm wide Shimano BB-UN54 BBs in a number of spindle widths. Also check on eBay there's always some listed there too. As I said, you can use a symmetric BB but you need to get one that's wide enough so that the chainrings don't hit the chainstays. _________________ Chas. SF Bay Area, CA USA ============== 1984 Criterium 1969 TdF 1971 TdF 1974 TdF 1984 TdF x 2 Bikes 1970 SC 1971 SC 1972 SC 1984 SC 1984 Team Pro 1985 Professional 1990s Team Replica   Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:35 pm Signals Joined: 10 Apr 2010 Posts: 10 Location: New York, NY Yeah - I took a good look at the Sheldon Brown links, and they were hugely helpful. I was just trying to hone in on the asym options first and see what that was all about before I started going nuts trying to measure everything by the millimeter! Thanks so much for the responses, Chas. Looking forward to getting this thing back onto the streets of NYC. I'll post updates as things progress. Dimensions   Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:57 pm verktyg Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 2814 Location: SF Bay Area The standard BB shell widths were French, British, Japanese and so on, 68mm wide. Italian BB were 70mm wide and many MTBs were 73mm wide. So if you can find a 68mm wide British thread Shimano sealed BB cartridge that has a 118mm wide spindle, you're home free. I've found them dirt cheap at bike junk yards. Many Shimano equipped road and crossover bikes from the late 80s and early 90s used them. I just bought an NOS Shimano UN91 cartridge on eBay for ~$12.00. The difference between the ISO and JIS tapers is how far the crank arm fits on the spindle. After an arm has been installed and removed several times, the square hole expands. If you can find a sealed bearing BB cartridge cheap, it's worth taking a chance that it will work. Here's the Shimano BB model numbers: CT21, LP27, UN40, UN51, UN52, UN71, UN72, UN91 CT21 is the cheapest, UN91 the best. _________________ Chas. SF Bay Area, CA USA ============== 1984 Criterium 1969 TdF 1971 TdF 1974 TdF 1984 TdF x 2 Bikes 1970 SC 1971 SC 1972 SC 1984 SC 1984 Team Pro 1985 Professional 1990s Team Replica   Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:56 am scozim Joined: 26 Sep 2008 Posts: 629 Location: Ellensburg, WA I've used a couple of the UN52's and, for the money, they've done quite well. I wasn't totally comfortable with the plastic cups but once in it tightened fine and has worked flawlessly. _________________ 1984 Gitane Sprint 1984 Gitane Tour de France mid-1970's Gitane Olympic Plus many more http://eburgcycling.blogspot.com Shimano BBs   Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:09 am verktyg Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 2814 Location: SF Bay Area Harris Cyclery has replacement aluminum left side cups for ~$20. I've used the plastic ones too and never had any problems but I too like the security of metal to metal. _________________ Chas. SF Bay Area, CA USA ============== 1984 Criterium 1969 TdF 1971 TdF 1974 TdF 1984 TdF x 2 Bikes 1970 SC 1971 SC 1972 SC 1984 SC 1984 Team Pro 1985 Professional 1990s Team Replica 1987 Gitane Record     gitaneusa.com Forum Index » Vintage Gitane You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum All times are GMT - 8 Hours   Page 1 of 2   Goto page 1, 2  Next All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First  Select a forum Gitane USA----------------Vintage GitaneGitane RacingModern GitanePro Racing - Classics/Giro/Tour....Owner Gallery   Powered by phpBB © 2001-2004 phpBB Group Designed for Trushkin.net | Themes Database.