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LeicaLad

Hi guys!

I'm off to middle USA to, among other duties, collect my '71 TdF from my aging mum's basement. I'll be doing a major and long overdue overhaul. Both headset and bottom bracket may require replacement. I'll keep the fingers crossed on the headset, but I do have lesser options in hand.

The question: Buried on the bike forum C&V section, in a thread on Review of Velo-Orange parts, a guy in Texas talked about installing a VO bb in his '72 TdF and matched to a 10 speed Veloce triple crankset. Initially, he said to his "ISO Campy crankset." He mentioned needing to get a second one, as his first was the wrong size – So, I asked what size he chose.

His answer:

"On my '72 Gitane TdF, I started out with a VO 107mm BB...it was much too wide for my 10 speed Campy Veloce triple crankset. VO's smallest French BB (the 103mm) was just about perfect, so that's what I kept on the bike."

What? ? ? ?

Now, I've never handled that specific Campy crank, but any triple would need more than this, yes?

The TdF came with Stronglight 93, which has the Stronglight BB & spindle at 118mm. On my '71 Super Corsa, the Campy NR crank has the Campy BB and spindle that is 114mm. These are for doubles. The Stronglight BB for a triple had either a 123mm or 125mm spindle, depending on period.

I'm planning on sticking with my Stronglight 93, and plan to replace the chainrings (Chas! ! !).

I have a couple Phil BBs in hand (113, 115), plus an OMAS sealed double in hand as fallback.

As extreme fallback, I have a spare Stronglight spindle, but I KNOW my original cups are toast.

Any advice? I'll have about 10 days in middle USA to sort this out and complete the task. We're setting out to make the drive this weekend.

Thanks Very Much.

Owen

LeicaLad

Here's the link to a Jan-Feb thread on the subject of proper spindle length for a Phil BB in an early 70s Gitane frame: http://www.gitaneusa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1768&highlight=bottom+bracket

No clear solution was offered, except that others had used up to a 118mm Phil BB.

Again, any observations, suggestions &/or advice will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Owen

verktyg

I thought that I pretty much covered the issues in that old thread with lots of suggested solutions:

http://www.gitaneusa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1768&highlight=bottom+bracket

Here's the Stronglight BB spindle specs:

The standard BB spindle widths were 118mm for doubles and 123mm for triples.

The 120mm and 125mm spindles were made for ITALIAN BBs which were 2mm wider at 70mm instead of the 68mm wide BB shells used on French, British and non-Italian bikes. DOH!

I've seen 120mm spindles on doubles, don't ask me why? Is it wrong, or just French?

As I mentioned before, we regularly used 116.5mm (117mm)TA spindles as replacements on Stronglight BBs, TA cups too! They were better made, less expensive and more readily available.

This chart shows the most important issues in crankarm/spindle fit.

All this fretting people do about JIS and ISO spindle tapers is a bunch of hogwash! Evil or Very Mad

It only matters on brandy new crank arms. Once tightened on to the spindle the soft aluminum internal tapers stretch! The more they've been used and the more they've been removed and reinstalled the bigger the crankarm tapers get.

If it fits, it works!

An easy way to tell before assembling the whole thing is to hold the spindle and slide the crankarms on one at a time. There should be a 3-5mm gap inside the crankarm between the end of the spindle and the flat area for the bolt shoulder; 2-3mm of the gap will go away when the crankarm is tightened down.

There are several reasons for concern about spindle width. the most obvious is to make sure that there is enough clearance between the inner chainring and the chainstay.

The second concern is chain line. The British were overly obsessed with PROPER chain line (everything must be tidy). This myth has been thoroughly debunked! Rolling Eyes

Before the late 1970s most bike chains were laterally (sideways) stiff. When Sedis introduced their SedisSport chains without bushings, they shifted noticeably better because they had more sideways flex.

Modern chains are even more flexible so they shift even better.

Here's what Sheldon Brown said about chain line (too much info).

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/chainline.html

This picture shows chain line for a 5 speed freewheel.

The important thing is that you try to avoid an extreme amount of chain deflection between the big sprockets and big chainring or the opposite, small/small combo.

The 115mm Phil Wood BB may be the easiest solution because it can be offset as much as 5mm. Make sure that at least 1/2 of the threads on the Phil cups are threaded into the BB shell on either side.

Campy Veloce are Low Profile cranks. Most cotterless cranks before 1980 were High Profile. I think that the low profile style cranks were a result of the AERO marketing fantasy of the early 80s (like shaving your legs because it will make you more aerodynamic and thus faster). Rolling Eyes

Anyway, the low profile cranks use narrower BB spindles because they mount closer to the BB shell. They are usually symmetric.

The sacred house of Campagnolo made a crazy variety of BB spindle widths. Why? Confused

http://00eda5d.netsolhost.com/bottom.html

Velo-Orange - It's a little disappointing that they didn't have asymmetrical width BB spindles made since most of these are going to be used on classic bikes with classic cranks (except for Fixie Fool single speeds).

Also, the Velo-Orange headsets have a 41mm stack height while the VAST MAJORITY of better quality French bikes came with Stronglight P3 headsets with a 33mm stack height.

If you need to replace the headset, get a Tange Levin CDS and only use the bottom cup and crown race. The bottom pieces are usually the only parts that wear out.

The Tange Levin CDS headsets look classic and are available with either 27mm (probably the correct size) and 26.4mm crown races. They are cheap too on eBay.

LeicaLad

Hi Chas,

Well, as usual, fabulous advice in expansive detail.

It was this strange thing of someone "requiring" a 103mm bottom bracket on a '72 TdF that had me confused. I had no idea that the crankset difference would/could allow for such a huge difference. Obviously, I've never seen/held a Veloce crankset.

Both of the Phil BBs I have are offset type, which will help. I also need to pick up some blue Loctite, me thinks.

Thanks particularly for the added comments about the headsets. This TdF has had a Campy headset on it since the mid-70s, when a pal of mine did the upgrade. I'll not know until I get there just how this was accomplished. I don't remember that he ever said anything about it being hard to install. Perhaps the spacers are out, maybe it was a longer (SC-type) fork, or maybe it's a Pista headset? To be seen. I'll report back when I know.

But, the advice about using a Tange headset for replacement parts is especially helpful. Thanks. I have an NOS Italian threaded one buried in a treasures box of parts from the 70s. I fear it's a 26.4, but that'll be a good place to start. I have no Italian threaded bikes, and no intention to acquire one. I think this headset was purchased by mistake (ignorance) years ago. Perhaps it might finally be of use! I'll get it out and put it into my travel box now.

For ultimate fallback, I have a NOS Stronglight P-3. But, my goal is to keep the Campy headset, if possible.

Finally, is there any chance that your machinist friend will finish off a few of those 38t chainrings? I'd sure like to put one on this TdF!

As always, my many thanks.

Cheers,

Owen

scozim · Last edited by scozim on Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

Great info Chas. I put a Velo Orange threadless bb into one of my French bikes and went with a 113 mm spindle length because from what I could tell it was supposed to work with my Campy Super Record 53-42 crankset. Nope, when tightened the inner ring hit the chain stay. I was able to use a Sugino Super Mighty crankset had enough clearance. I suspect the Campy crankset had seen a little more use on a bike as it came from my dad and was used during his ultra marathon days.

verktyg

verktyg

LeicaLad

Hi Chas,

It was odd. The guy said it was for his Veloce TRIPLE! Whatever.

On the Campy headset, my SC did come from the factory that way, but the one on my TdF has been there since circa 1976 (I think?). Certainly, it's been thru a pretty serious life of use and infrequent attention, often in sub-tropical countries. If it's holding on by only a few threads, it's done so for some 35 years. I'll not know until about this time next week just what condition it really is in now.

The Tange Levin is a NOS/NIB in Italian thread has been in a parts/treasure box in my storage for years. I have no memory of when I got it, but it has to be either late 70s or early 80s. If I can use part of it, great. If not, well, back into the parts box.

Last week, I went to the Velo-Orange garage sale, and picked up a Tange-Seiki as an impulse purchase. It's an NJS alloy model in BSC. Marked 30.2 and 26.4.

The impulse was as a fallback for my Hilton Wrigley frame that is currently being refinished by Chris Marshall in the UK. But I have both a VO sealed unit and a NOS Zeus 2000 headset ahead of it for use on the HW. I wonder if it (this Tange) would be a better race match on the French frame?

That said, what about using part of the Zeus headset as parts? (It's BSC threaded, so couldn't use it all.)

On the Campy vs the P-3: Good point. Left over effects from the Kool-Aid I drank, I guess. I always liked the look of the Campy headset over the Stronglight – especially the proletarian P-3. (Being a prol, myself, the Campy spoke to aesthetics, aspirations. . or something like that!) The P-3 is just one ugly headset (and a bugger to adjust w/o the special Stronglight tool, too).

As for that man on your "S" list: Honey works better than vinegar. Maybe a sweet and soothing phone call might get him to finish the job??? (My fingers are crossed, anyway.) Whatever it takes to get those out should be worthy, eh? I am REALLY grateful for the one on my Hetchins. Really. Very. Grateful.

Thanks, yet again.

Owen

scozim

LeicaLad

I owe an update.

My basic overhaul duties are almost done, although a complete refurbishment will require a few more steps.

Item #1 - The Headset

The Campy NR headset on my TdF was installed sometime in the 1970s. In theory, the fork should not have been long enough - meaning that the lock nut should have been holding on by a single thread or two.

Well, there is no spacer, nor a hanger for center-pull brake. There wouldn't be room for those. BUT, the has been enough threading for a secure hold for 30+ some years.

The headset bearings and races were in fabulous shape. On very close cleaning, one could see it had been in use, but the surfaces were perfect. Slathered with grease and put back together.

Item #2 - The Bottom Bracket

When I pulled the original Stronglight BB out, I was pleasantly surprised by its condition, as well. It clearly was ready to be replaced, but not as grim as I was expecting. A small bit of pitting and brinelling on the cup races. As noted, I was expecting much worse. Actually, the grease was also surprisingly supple. Anyway, I came with intent to replace. It was clearly called for. So that was next.

Except. . . The fixed cup had other ideas. Having not budged in 40 years, it was in no hurry to do so now. I did all the tricks. Loosening oils & fluids, magic potions, incantations, waved a dead chicken over it, and then resulting to full contact wrestling. Not a pretty picture.

I did the Sheldon Tool trick. More wrestling. More loosening fluids. Loosening fluids for me. More wrestling. On several occasions, the wife appeared. Laughed. Left.

Okay. A full day was lost. Time to go outside the household.

Local tire shop. I've got my Sheldon tool affixed. I showed the frame to the man wielding the pneumatic wrench. At first, he misunderstands and just takes it off. Then, he understands. But in tightening it down, he does it too slowly (I think). Result is stripped threads on the bolt.

Sheldon tool is now stuck. Ugh.

Younger grease monkey comes over. I got a crescent that'll fit that he says. Other mechanic throws in the towel and walks off. Younger guy looks at bolt sticking out (3.5") and says: Hmmm. First, that'll have to come off.

So, I hold frame and he puts super-dremel tool onto the pneumatic hose. Watch your eyes, he says, as I'm holding frame. He has no protective glasses, and proceeds to grind into the nut. Hot sparks flying everywhere. I'm jumping a bit as some bounce off my arm and legs, but I see the main flow of sparks is going right onto his bare left forearm. Isn't that hot?, I ask. Nah, I'm used to it, says he. Quite a bit of grinding is required to cut through both nut and bolt. Pneumatic chisel finishes the work.

I'm ready to thank him and move on to LBS, but he says he's killing time waiting for a parts delivery and isn't ready to quit. Into the junk bin in search of another bolt and nuts. Takes a while, but he finds 5/8 inch bolt, self-locking nut and another nut.

It's a variant of the Sheldon tool, and I clearly think the better - if only because it worked. Self-locking nut on backwards well down onto bolt. Then insert through BB and cup. Then second nut onto outside. Cinch the two bolts tight. Hold outer with wrench, tighten inner with pneumatic gun. It pops loose and unscrews!

So. Now to replace the bottom bracket.

(End part one. System is not letting me post longer...?)

LeicaLad

SO. Now to replace the BB.

I have options for replacement. As I haven't clearly understood the best size discussion, I have an older style Phil in 113mm, a newer style Phil in 115mm, both ISO, of course, and an OMAS sealed unit. Ultimate fallback is a NOS French Campy BB set from the treasure box.

Lucky for me, the first and oldest Phil in 113mm seems to be a perfect fit. This unit has factory replaced bearings, so it's good for the rest of my life - at least.

New rings. Yeah, the outer is not really a 93 ring, but it's a good looker. The inner is a NOS 38t ring. VERY happy to have that (Thanks, Chas!).

I have some Campy pedals, complete with toe loop, in French thread that I intended to install, but my Zeus pedals that have been on this bike since the late-70s are quite a bit lighter. It's the steel cages of the Campy pedals that make them so heavy. Freshly repacked bearings and the races are perfect. SO, the Zeus stay on and the Campy pedals go back into the French parts stash.

Still some cleaning to do. Chain is encrusted with old oil, so it's bathing in degreaser. After a re-oiling, we'll be back and ready to roll.

I've ordered new brake cables & housing. The brake hoods are rubber, but are so old they look like exotic lizard skin. Modolo brakes, so the replacement hoods are impossible to find. Sigh. I really need new bar tape, but the hoods would disintegrate in the process. Maybe they'll just stay as is for now. Such is life.

Dat's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

Owen
Currently in Kansas

verktyg

RE: 103 mm BB for Campy Triple???

I stand corrected.... of sorts! Confused

Campagnolo made so many different model cranks and BBs over the past 25 years that it's difficult to find accurate information on them.

The link that I posted is a good resource for Campy BB info up through about 1987.

http://00eda5d.netsolhost.com/bottom.html

In the early 90s Campagnolo started producing sealed bearing BB cartridges for many of their cranksets.

They made expensive ones for the Record and Chorus cranks and a less expensive style in 2 lengths and 3 versions for the lumpen proletariat. Cool

The high price spread...

The cartridge for more affordable cranks...

Here's the specs from the 2002 Campy BB instruction pamphlet.

Campy Sealed Bottom Brackets Mid 90s Through Mid 2000s

RECORD 102 mm Spindle
For Double 9 speed & 10 speed. For Seat Tubes 28.6 mm, 32 mm & 35 mm

RECORD TRIPLE 111 mm Spindle Asymmetrical
For Triple 10 Speed. For Seat Tubes 28.6 mm, 32 mm & 35 mm

Chorus 102 mm Spindle
For Double 9 speed & 10s peed. For Seat Tubes 28.6 mm, 32 mm & 35 mm

The following 111 mm Sealed Bearing Bottom Brackets fit VELOCE, MIRAGE, XENON and CENTAUR Cranks.

AC-H - Aluminum Cups with hollow steel spindle

AC-S - Aluminum Cups with solid steel spindle

SC-S - Steel Cups with solid steel spindle

VELOCE Double 9 Speed, MIRAGE Double 9 Speed, XENON Double 9 Speed, CENTAUR Double 9 Speed, CENTAUR Double 10 Speed, 111 mm Spindle Symmetrical
For Seat Tubes 28.6 mm, 32 mm & 35 mm

VELOCE Triple 9 Speed, MIRAGE Triple 9 Speed, XENON Triple 9 Speed, CENTAUR Triple 9 Speed, 111 mm Spindle Symmetrical . For Seat Tubes 28.6 mm.

The following 115.5 mm Sealed Bearing Bottom Brackets fit VELOCE, MIRAGE, XENON and CENTAUR Triple Cranks on frames with 32 mm and 35mm Seat Tubes.

AC-H - Aluminum Cups with hollow steel spindle

SC-S - Steel Cups with solid steel spindle

These Campy bottom brackets were made in both 1.370” -24 TPI British Threads and 36 mm x 24 TPI Italian Threads. They had ISO square tapers.

I've used these Veloce cartridges with Campy Victory cranks and other models plus I'm running one with a Suntour Superbe crankset. You can find them new on eBay for ~$30 USD.

Remember, if it fits, it works! Twisted Evil

The 103 mm BB mentioned in previous posts is beyond the period when REAL Gitanes were being made at Machecoul, France.... Besides. the older SC would have had metric threads and Campy cartridges were never made in metric threads.