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smilingroadrunner

Good Karma!! there's more to this story that I hope to post later with photos comparing the two Interclubs. But this evening I received a '72 or '73 white Interclub that will hopefully soon spell some relief for my faithful '71. Although it is a 25.5in frame Vs my original '71 24.5in frame. I WILL RIDE THIS BIKE SOMETIME IN THE FUTURE Hopefully I will figure out a way to replace what appears to be possibly some type of Schwinn stem and handlebar (The original owner worked at a local Schwinn Dealership in the 70's). I believe he has replaced the original hubs, definitely the rims (as it now has clinchers vs the Mavic tubular rims) the seat a well worn Brooks, and as mentioned the bars and stem. My intent is to soon add more to the story and include photos of the two bicycles. I've been wanting to refinish my '71 Interclub, but with a lot of work this new steed should clean up nicely---just have to shorten the reins. I intend to call the original owner to find out just how much and/or when he updated the components. My question now is: Is there a date code pattern to the serial number (such as my Paramount C73 March '73) I know the owner will tell me which year he purchased the bike from his employeer, just curious if there is a date code? Hope to get some pictures tomorrow and follow with more questions about stem replacement.
Sincerely, C. A. Aka smilingroadrunner

PS. Any special procedure to add pictures to these posts??

lofter

hi roadrunner and welcome , nothing hard about uploading pics .juust click the add image post link at the bottom of the text box when u post something. on the serial numbers , nobody here has figured out how to decipher the mysterious gitane date codes yet .maybe you can look in the catalogs section to see if you can match it up . that is if we have the availible catalog up . were kinda short on a few that r missing .

smilingroadrunner

Well here goes my first time to try to post some images related to my post from last evening. Sort of a trial balloon and will post further notes and history after visiting with the previous owner. The original owner, Doug, was a fellow classmate from high school, he worked at the local Schwinn dealership during the late 60's , early 70's. One of my close friends started riding bikes about 8-10 years ago--helping his Scouts working on Cycling merit badge---and you might say that he got hooked on bicycling. Melvin asked me a week ago "Don't you ride one of those old french bikes a Git or something that begins with a G" I replied yes, I have my original '71 Interclub that I ride almost daily. Melvin said " I have a bike you need to look at, one of my neighbors set it out along the curb to "Give Away--Free". So last evening after church he openned the back door to his van and I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Certainly not the rusted hulk that I would have expected someone to set out. As I mentioned it is a 25.5 inch frame so a little large for me--but I was able to come up with some rim tape and 700c x 19-23 tubes to get the tires up & rolling. My wife said I looked like a little kid with his first bicycle as I rode up & down the street this afternoon. After visiting a little more with Melvin, I asked him if he knew who had set the bike out. He told me who the bike belonged to. When I started getting serious about bike racing in '70, '71, I used to visit with Doug quite frequently as I was always in the local bike shop. I hope he will approve that by some strange way or luck or just "Good Karma" his '72 or '73 Interclub has found someone who will treasure and hopefully restore it to the best of my ability. I will continue to follow up on another Interclub and a TdF that I have been visiting with the owners for many year about purchasing if or when they finally decide to sell their Gitane"s. However I guess that since this more or less "Fell into my Lap" as a good steward it will be my task to try to restore to it's earlier splendor.

Left Side: Plan to replace assume Schwinn Handlebar & Stem

Right Side: Hope the bearing grease will polish off the paint finish--plan to replace with original Hubs and Mafac sport tubular rims

The slope of the driveway makes the 25.5" frame of the '72 Interclub to my right appear smaller than my original 24.5" '71 Interclub.

Note: These images were edited on 11-14-07 by myself to remove some previous computer software issues that I was unaware of when originally posted in September '07--sorry if the earlier software links had offended any of this forums members.
Sincerely, C.A.

smilingroadrunner

I had a few questions related to the tubing on the 70's TdeF. I've recently acquired a '70 Champion Blue and a (assume 71-73) White T de F models for a winter project. Eventually hope to post these and my Interclubs on the S/N forum when I get them cleaned up.

Was the tubing on the TdeF all double butted (frame tubes, forks, stays) as my 1971 Gitane Catalog states??? I ask this in researching the possible replacement French decal for the Reynolds sticker from Cyclomondo. My frame decal or what's left of it:

And after riding Gitanes since 1971, I should know these but If I were to replace the Stronglight headset and BB with Campy components, I need ??? French threading (headset 25x1, BB 35x1) Is the treading on the Campy Nuovo Tipo large flange hubs also a French (I would assume it is English or Italian) type threading so choice of freewheel threading also becomes an issue? I have several Regina Oro freewheels of different ratios from my '73 Paramount, but question whether the threading on the Paramount Nuovo Record hubs would be different. I'm really thinking of trying to set up one of these TdeF with complete Campy Record (headset & BB will probably be costly E-bay purchases )

I assume these stamped date codes were possibly related to Bicycle Shop or Police I.D. program. The seller shared with me that she had purchased the bike earlier this year at a thrift shop in Raleigh N.C. It has a decal from Austin Bicycle Sales, Austin TX, but really no history where it has travelled. I hope to be able to give it a good home.

on the assume '71-'73 TdeF Pivo Stem (74 005) Just no idea when these codes would have been placed or by who.

on the bottom bracket (74 005)

Drop out S/N 24 381

Sorry fellows for the image sizes when going to full size view ---any tips how to limit these image sizes when enlarged. More in the future as I get into these project bikes.
C.A.

verktyg

Lucky find...

One of my old girlfriends from the 70s still has one of my Interclubs that I fixed up for her. She still rides it on occasion.

The original Interclubs came with cottered steel cranks. Sometime around late 1973 Gitane started shipping them to the US equiped with Sugino Maxi alloy cotterless cranks. The crank arms were cast aluminum and the large chainrings were swagged onto the right crank arms. I've seen several of these fail at the swage.

Someone did some nice upgrades. The Stronglight 93 cranks are really beautiful. I still use them on several bikes including my 1975 Campy equipped Raleigh Pro. The chainrings shifted better than Campys from that era.

The stem looks like a Cinelli steel model. If it's a steel stem it's going to be far better than the cast aluminum Pivo stems these bikes came with.

The hubs look like later model Shimano 600 models. They were pretty nice hubs.

Interclubs were designed as amateur or club racing models for casual or beginning racers. They had racing geometry frames and sewups. The frames were made of lighter gage tubing than standard 10 speeds of the era. Some of them were even made of Durifort butted tubing.

You can send me that crappy old Brooks saddle, I'll take it off of your hands.

Here's a link to Sheldon Brown's web site where he discusses French bikes:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/velos.html

All of the threads on these bikes are Metric.

Your TdF is probably around a 1972 or 73 model because it has Campy Nuovo Tipo hubs. Earlier models used Normandy Luxe hubs.

The stamped numbers on the stem and BB are not related to Gitane serial numbers from that period. The serial number is on the dropout.

You will have problems going to a Campy headset on this frame. The stack height on a Stronglight P3 headset is ~34mm whereas a Campy NR headset is ~39mm.

You would have to have at least 5mm removed from the frame and fork crown and that could change the frame geometry which would affect the handling.

You could try to find a Stronglight V4 headset which would have the same stack height. They were much better than the P3 models. Also while very scarce, Tange made some metric headsets with stack heights ~33mm.

As far as changing to Crampy cranks, why? The Stronglight chainrings shift so much better plus you can get them down to 38 teeth.

The 3 things that I would change would be:

1. Front derailleur. Anything is better than the old style Simplex FDs.
2. Ass hatchet Torquemada saddle. The urologist's dream, guaranteed to cause plumbing problems. Shocked

3. Seat post. Get one with micro adjustability.

Great bikes, enjoy them.

Chas.

smilingroadrunner

Thanks Chas for your reply. I really do feel lucky about the beautiful finish on the '72 Interclub. The post today was mainly about the T de F models, but the earlier post from September was related to the '72 Interclub. The Brooks saddle and longer reach stem was definitely a modification Doug did to the bike---I could see no marking on the steel stem indicating that it was a Cinelli---but it sure looks like it has a "S" stamped Schwinn bolt in it.

As I found out in visiting with Doug since the earlier post in September; he had not been able to ride the bike due to back problems and surgery about 18-20 yrs ago---basically the bike hung upside down in his garage until he moved this summer. The Paint and Foil decals are in excellent shape-finish if I can successfully remove the grease discoloration. He also purchased the Shimano Hubs and newer rims at a later time. I have to come up with a shorter stem ( I can ride as is--but really too long of a stretch for my torso & arm length ) I have a set of Gitane handlebars and Mafac brake levers to make the bike more period accurate.

My '71 Interclub that I purchased in June 1971 came with the Sugino Maxy cranks---

it still works fine but kind of 'creacky"--thinking about replacing it with one of my extra Stronglight crank or an extra Sugino Mighty Competition . The thing that I've come to realize the more I see from postings on this site is variety of components that were used to build these early '70s bikes. Back to my question about the decal for instance. My red 21.5" TdeF has a Reynolds 531 decal in English (double butted frame tubes, forks and stays),on the down tube. Yet the recent '73 TdeF frame above seems to have a Reynolds 531 decal in French, on the seat tube. And the Champion Blue '70 TdeF has the triangular shaped Reynolds 531 decal in French on the left front fork with no evidence of a Reynolds decal elsewhere on the frame. So again thanks for the info about the Campy headset---issue. So did the Super Corsa use a Stronglight headset VS Campy?
C.A. Lots of project to keep busy with this winter.

verktyg

The clamp bolt on the Interclub stem does look like it's from a Schwinn. Like I said though, I've never seen a steel stem that long before. Someone could have used a Schwinn bolt in a European stem. Also those are "randoneur" bars which came on some Schwinns and the brake levers are Mafac, just missing the rubber half hoods.

Measuring the quill diameter on the stem would help to determine what kind of stem you have.

A French stem should have a 22mm or 21.9mm ( .866 or .862 ) diameter quill.

Inch size European stems are 22.2mm ( 7/8"- .875 ).

Most bikes with 1 peice Ashtabula steel cranks used .833 ( 21.15mm ) stems. This included most US made Schwinns except Paramounts and a few other higher end models.

Gitane TdFs from the late 60s until about 1974 had a Reynolds 531 sticker in French at the top of the seat tube and a triangle 531 sticker on the left fork. All of the tubing was Reynolds 531 or at least 9 of the 11 tubes were. These stickers were notoriously fragile. The 531 English sticker may have been a replacement.

In late 1974 Gitane started using Huret "honey comb" style dropouts. TdF frames were downgraded. Only the 3 main tubes were made of Reynolds 531 butted tubing. The rest of the tubing was ???

The Reynolds 531 - " 3 tubes renforces" stickers were located on the down tubes just above the shift levers on these vintage TdFs.

Gitane Super Corsa and the earlier Tour de France frames were made of Reynolds 531 tubing throughout (9, 10 or 11 tubes - some companies used cheap tubing for the head tubes and/or steerer tubes).

The only difference was the TdFs used Simplex dropouts vs. Campy dropouts on the Super Corsa; the Super Corsa frames were setup for Campy Headsets instead of the Stronglight P3. Both models had the same decals throughout except for a foils Super Corsa or Tour de France sticker above or below the shift levers. Both models rode and handled the same.

Super Corsas were all campy equipped except for Mafac brakes. Campy brakes were optional for an extra $100-$125 USD. I never saw one equipped from the factory with Campy brakes - they were in short supply during those days. Mafacs were the brakes of choice among the pros up through the late 60s.

Reynolds 531 tubing was available in a wide range of wall thicknesses. Most of the TdF and SC frames from the early 70s were made of lighter gage Reynolds 531 than contemporary bikes from other manufacturers.

Thinner tubing had to be brazed more carefully to avoid overheating. Less skilled workers could be employed to braze thicker tubing and do it faster. I've never seen a tubing or braze failure in any Gitane frame so I guess that they did a pretty good job.

Using a quality brand of tubing only for the 3 main tubes was a marketing ploy. You could have gas pipe for the main tubes and Reynolds forks and stays and the bike would still ride OK.

We imported Andre Bertin bikes from France during the 1970s. We started having them use Durifort forks and stays on the lower end models which gave the bikes better riding characteristics. Later we found that we could get frames made of all Durifort tubing with forged gear hanger droputs for just a few dollars more! Surprised

The TdF you have pictured is pretty much original except for the clinchers, rear derailleur and plastic Simplex shift levers. TdFs came with Simplex Criterium deraillueurs and the shift levers were aluminum with black plastic covers over the lever ends. Also, TdFs only had 3 top tube brake cable clamps; yours has four.

Hope that answers your queststions.

Chas.

smilingroadrunner

Again the wealth of information and history !!! The members of this forum amaze me. Thanks again Chas for the additional information related to frame tubing and decals. Your a walking encyclopedia (or riding as the case may be). I feel the decal placement & type of decal you mention helps me more closely date all 3 of these TdeF frames.
Sincerely,
C.A.

verktyg

Thanks, my experience with Gitanes is from the mid 70s. The availability of Gitane bikes in the US dried up about the end of 1976-77. At that time they weren't bringing in any of the top of the line bikes and what they did offer was over priced compared to the competition.

Japanese bikes were taking over the lower and mid price range market and most of the European manufacturers were being squeezed out by the exchange rate. The better European bikes from Italy and the UK were mostly coming in as bare frames.

We started importing the Andre Bertin bikes made to our specs in 1975. They were mostly touring style bikes with a few club racers for spice. We wanted to offer an alternative to the Japanese bikes and high end Italian bikes.

Here's a picture of the Simplex Criterium Shift Levers:

This is the Simplex Criterium Rear Derailleur that came on TdFs. When new and well oiled they shifted far better than Campy RDs but were no match for the better quality Suntour and Shimano RDs hitting the market.

These are the proper French 531 decals for the full Reynolds TdF frames:

Chas.

smilingroadrunner

Chas. The info about downtube decal placement helps me date the damaged red TdeF frame, (several problems with esp FedEx shipments or sellers not quite preparing bikes for transport---just received a set of wheels today that had broken off the end of the skewer shaft and skewer nut--but I digress) My hope is to use parts and headset from this damaged frame to place into service on the Champion Blue '70 frame. I quess I'll search to see if I can find a less rusted downtube shifter framework; but between the 2 frames I think I can get the correct Simplex Criterium shifter set up--just lots of rust on the current shift levers on the blue frame ---some type of Suntour "power shifter" levers on the red frame, that probably are not period correct for the '70 frame.

I know this may my placing later vintage derailleurs from the '74 onto the '70, but to substitute the Simplex Criterium derailleur

With Suntour Comp-V and Suntour V-Tluxe

Thinking that the newer Mafac competion brakes off the red TdF will have a better finish when polished, and definitely will use the headset pieces from the red TdF to replace the corroded parts on the '70

Sorry for the last 2 fuzzy images (problems with Macro mode on Canon)

I guess it comes down to seeing how well the Simplex derailleurs function when I actually get the '70 cleaned up---I'm kind of undecided about putting later parts onto the '70. As I mentioned I got the rims to clean-up to build up the tubular rims to correct the damaged rims that were on the '70. What's more relevant---cleaning up --restoring to ride (I like to RIDE my bikes) or to restore to the original equipment. (My 18-20 yr old backside was more forgiving back in 1970-73--the plastic saddle will be set aside for the time being)

Again thanks for the information about the Reynolds decal placement positions in relation to the early '70 models. Time to go clean up some rims & polish hubs.

Thanks Stephan for the hard work in creating and maintaining this site. What a great resource!!! Very helpful and informative forum members, Thanks all!!
C.A.

verktyg

The paint on your blue TdF has held up well. It looks really nice. The damaged decal on the top tube could have come that way from the original dealer. Bike Boom era bikes from Europe were packed horribly.

Gitanes made from the late 60s through the Bike Boom era ending around 1974 used very poor quality paint.

Red, turquoise blue, violet, copper, gold and UGLY dark green were "candy apple" colors - transparent tinted lacquers sprayed over a thick white primer base. Orange and white were solid colors. I've only seen one black Gitane from the 70s.

The thick primer that they used filled the orange peel finish in the tubes that resulted from the coarse grain material Gitane used to sandblast their frames before painting. The thick primer also allowed the paint to easily chip and scratch.

The red, blue and violet Gitane paint jobs from that period faded badly when exposed to direct sunlight. The UGLY green and copper colors haven't faded much and are still ugly while white and orange painted frames easily chipped or scratched.

Gitanes from late 1974 on had much better paint.

The red bike has Simplex dropouts so it's a full Reynolds 531 frame with butted main tubes. The decal should be a French Reynolds 531 on the top of the seat tube. Someone put an English 531 sticker on the down tube.

Both of these bikes came with Simplex Criterium derailleurs and shift levers. The levers were almost OK for the era and as I said the RD was OK when new and well lubricated. The front derailleurs were copies of early Campy plunger style derailleurs from the 50s and 60s that never worked well.

Lucien Juy the head of Simplex was infatuated with Delrin plastic which is an improved version of nylon.

This came about way before the movie "The Graduate" was released:

"[Benjamin] I want to say one word to you. Just one word...... Plastics." Very Happy

Daniel Rebour the famous French cycling illustrator warned that plastic derailleurs were going to be the downfall of the French bicycle industry. They were! Shocked

What can you say about a nation infatuated with Jerry Lewis? Rolling Eyes

Someone switched from Simplex to Suntour derailleurs which was the recommended upgrade at that time.

The question is what do you want, a period correct restoration or a bike that rides well with close to period components.

The rear Suntour V-T Luxe is a good shifting derailleur if it's still tight and not worn out. Almost all of the slant parallel derailleurs on the market today can be traced back to this design. This has a mid length arm so it can be used with fairly wide range road gears.

Until Suntour brought out their Cyclone derailleurs in 1975 their front derailleurs were garbage. The shift cages were made of soft steel that bent easily and they flexed too much to shift smoothly. They continued selling these style derailleurs as the bottom line models up into the 80s. Shimano had the same problems with their early front derailleurs.

If the Suntour RD still works well then stick with it and get a more modern front derailleur. The shift levers on the red bike were state of the art for that period so you can stick with them too.

If you want better performance then I can make some other suggestions.

BTW, a few of the ~1973 Grand Sport Deluxe bikes came with Suntour derailleurs. Same thing with Interclubs. The French component makers couldn't keep up with the demand.

Also you mentioned that the red bike was damaged. What happened?

Chas.

smilingroadrunner

Even after I had offered to forward an additional amount for extra packaging care to the seller of this frame. (His response "Don't worry I have lots of packing paper") I should have been more insistent!!! It arrived with the front forks out the end of the box, and R rear stay & derailleur out of the side of the box. R fork and R rear stay bent (and seemingly 13 pieces of paper about newspaper consistency loosely wadded around & inside the box). So much for that sellers care for my purchase.

Anyhow my original interest in bidding and purchasing this frame was basically to utilize parts from the 21.5" frame (too small for me)--the photos on Ebay showed that the paint and decals were really damaged. No one had bid on the frame so I made an offer at the time. I feel like the headset, derailleurs-shifter, brakes are all going to be useful in the restoration of the 2 TdeF's, and hope to use the stem and handlebars to restore the '72 Interclub. Thinking about possibly using the Sugino Mighty Competition crank assy to update my creaking original Sugino Maxy on my '71 Interclub.

The shipping companies really don't care. I'm sure most seller instructions are "deliver as is" so any damage is left to resolve between seller and buyer not the shipping firms. So I guess the moral of this story is: If you are a seller----Be Responsible-Do the Right Thing---"Double Box" or add additional side wall reinforcement to bike shipping boxes--remove skewers from wheelsets and again reinforce packaging.
If you are buyer----be insistent---communicate to the shipper the type of care that needs to be followed to hopefully insure a safe transport.

I'm not sure that the R fork arm, or rear stay couldn't be corrected; but with the "crimp" damage in the tubing walls, I would guess any attempt to correct would potentially "crimp" or bend it on the opposite side, or minimally the tubing would be weakend and subject to further failure or collapse if stressed.

After the experience with the red frame I've definitely been more insistent and paid additionally for sellers to protect my investment. Other than the recent damaged Campy skewer on some wheelsets--the bikes have arrived safely.

C.A. tired of removing rim cement, and polishing rims and hubs--great calm sunny morning I'm going riding now.

the70sbike

smilingroadrunner-looks like you have some nice Gitanes there! I know it is heresy, but I like the looks of the TdF with the Sugino crank set, especially with the correct red dust caps. I assembled many Interclubs in my brief bike shop career back in the seventies. Gitane paint was crappy, my current 73 TdF will attest to that! Mine is the turquoise/blue candy apple. It has faded a bit but I like it original. It was one of my favorite Gitane colors back in the day.

smilingroadrunner

Thanks, I've got some work ahead but it will be fun and can't wait when they're finished. I took the new '73 white TdeF for about a 25mi ride this afternoon--really missed not having toe clips or clip-in pedals and my backside probably will not forgive me for 24hrs but I couldn't wait to get out on it for a while.

The finish on your TdeF looks great--my blue '70 will need some work (lots of small rust bubbles-paint wrinkles) but generally looks good from a distance. I will just have to be content with the patina that it's developed.

Blue would have been my choice when I bought my '71 Interclub, but as an impatient 18yr old, after waiting and watching about 3-4 previous shipments of various Gitane models arive and depart from Burgess Schwinn Cyclery in the late winter early spring of '71. I grabbed my current white '71. (wouldn't you know, the next allotment that John got included a Champion Blue Interclub)

As I've been contemplating these restorations I wondered what color of bar tape would be appropriate for the Blue '70 TdeF. (Is your bar a plastic wrap??? vs a colored tape??)--the fact that you mention in one of your earlier posts that the bar tape was original will be a definite guide. I've not seen a catalog picture of an early '70 Champion Blue--so wasn't sure what I would choose.

Probably will have some more questions as these projects progress.

Can you share with members how you are adding image to your post so it creates the full size (example or your bike posted above) vs the thumbnail files that click on to enlarge. There is an advantage to the "click on to enlarge" to see additional or fine detail. But the image size you have included would be helpful also.

verktyg

That's a really nice TdF that the70sbike posted the picture of.

Most of the 3 top end early Gitanes (Interclub, Tour de France and Super Corsa) shipped with white cloth handlebar tape. The bars shipped unwrapped plus the sewups needed to be glued. Setting up one of these models was a 2-3 hour job.

Chas.