gitaneusa.com :: View topic - Please help! Is this a Gitane Super Corsa? What year?

bigmark

Please help me identify this bike. By the looks of the chromed fork and rear drop out ends, I think it's a Gitane.

The racing green paint appears to be original... since it is UNDER what's left of the decals. I can make out part of the word "SUPER" and "971" on the seat tube decal... and the fork decal reads "HAUBANS - BASES FOURREAUX" with another "971" beneath it.

The chromed dropouts are also Campy.The crank is Campy, arms stamped "Strada." The rear RD is Campy Neuvo Record with a 5-speed racing cassette. The cable holders, brakes, levers, seatpost, front DR, and hubs are all Campy. Headset is Stronglight. The seat is a brass riveted "Ideale 90". The rims are Fiamme.

I'm thinking this was a really high-end bike in it's day... as it really surprised me when I picked it up... only weighs 20 pounds.

It is in perfect working condition and appears to be all original spec. I was also really surprised by the smoothness and instant engagement of the rear hub... sounds and works like a Chris King.

So, what year/model is this? Approximately what is it worth?

Thanks in Advance!

-Big Mark

verktyg

Nice bike but I don't think that it's a Gitane. Here's why:

1. The forks on your bike are a lot straighter than those found on late 60s to early 70s top of the line Gitanes. The bends are near the bottom on Gitane fork blades.

2. From the late 60s on I've never seen a Gitane with wide stripes where the paint meets the chrome on the forks and stays.

3. The chrome plated area on Gitanes forks and stays is longer than on your bike.

It's hard to tell what the tubing stickers are from the pictures. They may be old Vitus stickers or old French Reynolds 531 stickers.

It could be a French bike or possibly a British bike. Also, it could have been repainted a long time ago.

Value? $400 to $600 depending how much someone wants it. Without any brand decals and provenance listing it's history it might only be worth $200 to $300. It's interesting that all of the Campy components are Record or Nuovo Record but the hubs are Nuovo Tipo.

Age? Late 60s early 70s.

It should be a nice riding responsive handling bike.

Chas.

vanhelmont

I surely wouldn't venture a guess on who made it, or try to recognize the stickers, but if it says "super" and "971", it's surely a super vitus 971 sticker. That would make it a high end frame, lightweight tubing comparable to 531. Besides various French bikes, Zeus used Vitus tubing. I've just been getting educated on Vitus and Durifort tubing. Enjoy the bike!

bigmark

Gentlemen,

I can definitely make out the words "Super" and "971" with a big "T" under the "971" on what's left of the decals... so you're probably right about the Vitus Super 971 tubing. What brands used this? Since the "HAUBANS BASES FOURREAUX" is French... I think it would be a French bike.

How can you tell the hubs are "Neuvo Tipo" vs "Neuvo Record?"

What do you mean by "provenance" of the bike?

What other brands had chrome fork ends / rear drop outs?

I cant find any serial #. Where should I be looking on an older bike?

By the way, I think the paint is definitely original... no drips or runs... and extends UNDER the clear parts of the decals.

Thanks Again!
-Big Mark

verktyg

verktyg

Looking around on the Classic Rendezvous site, I found this picture of a Follis bike:

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/France/bicycles/Follis/follis_model_472.htm

This is a later model with Nervex lugs but short chrome sections with black paint around them plus the straight forks leads me to think that maybe your bike might be an older Follis from the mid 1960s.

Follis were some of the best built production bikes made in France during those years.

BTW, the chainrings on you Campy cranks probably have the older 151mm diameter bolt pattern rather than the newer standard 144mm pattern. A 44 tooth chainring is the smallest that will fit and all of the 151mm chainrings are very hard to find and $$$$.

Chas.

bigmark

Dear Chas,

I measured the tubes. They appear to be inch size. I checked all the places you mentioned for serial #'s, but could find none. My decals are probably the older ones you mentioned... shaped like your blue ones. I have attached better pictures. I will join Classic Rendevous and try there. What are these rare and expensive 3 piece Campy hubs called... if they're not Tipos?

Thanks Again,
Mark

verktyg

In the original pictures the decals looked like they had a blue background which was puzzling. Now that I can see what remains of the orange background they are clearly standard older Super Vitus 971 decals indicating that this is probably a pretty nice frame.

Super Vitus 971 was the equivalent of Columbus SL tubing. The strength and wall thicknesses are the same.

Since you stated that the tubes and inch sized it's not likely that this is a French made bike. More likely it was made in Belgium, Holland or the UK.

From the spiderweb cracking of the paint and the fork crown, my guess is that it's at least 30 years old. You can check the manufacturing dates on the Campy rear derailleur and crank arms but components get frequently changed.

From the velo-retro.com web site:

http://www.velo-retro.com/tline.html

"Some Campagnolo parts can be dated by codes or patent dates. For example, the Nuovo Record rear derailleur has a patent date that corresponds to its manufacturing date starting in 1970 (example "PAT. 70"); marked "PATENT" before 1970. The lock nut on the hub axle typically is stamped with "CAM. 60" or some other number denoting the last two digits of the year of manufacture. The word "RECORD" was added to the hub barrels around 1963. The original "Open C" style Campagnolo logotype (imagine a U turned on its side) on the Q.R. levers was changed to a "closed C" in 1958 with the introduction of the one-piece alloy Record hubs and a little later to the shift levers. Starting in 1973 the crank arms have a code consisting of a diamond (1970's), circle (1980's), square (late Super Record), with a number in the center denoting the last digit of the year of manufacture (some exceptions:11=1985, 22=1986, 33=1987 plus others"

Are your hubs 3 piece or was that an optical illusion in the picture. If they are then they may be much older than the bike as the 3 piece hubs date back to the 1950s. Campy released their 1 piece aluminum alloy "Record"
hubs in 1958. Except for their Nuovo Tipo hubs with round holes in the high flange versions and some Super Record hubs with titanium axles all of their hubs up through the early 1980s were called Record.

Hope that this helps a little and good luck finding info on your bike.

Chas.

verktyg

Mark,

On second thought, this bike is a piece of junk. What size did you say it was? I'll take it off of your hands for $25. Twisted Evil

Seasons Greetings

Chas. Wink

bigmark

Ha!Ha! Merry Christmas!
-Mark

bigmark

Chas,

Cranks have a "diamond 5" and rear DR is a "patent 73." Seatpost is a 26.4 and BB says "35 x 1" if that tells you anything.

Thanks,
Mark

verktyg

Mark,

Hmmm... The cranks or at least one of them was/were made in 1975. That would make them Nuovo Record cranks with a 144mm bolt circle. A 42 tooth chainring is usually considered the smallest that will fit these cranks but Campy made some rare 41 tooth chainrings too.

The rear derailleur was made in 1973. If the hubs are 3 piece - aluminum flanges with a shiny chrome plated steel center then they may go back to the 1950s. Remember what I said about not trusting the age of the components in determining how old a bike is.

I have several bikes that are completely period correct with the original factory components. These are more or less collectors items and they're "hangar queens" because I never ride them for fear of getting them scratched or dirty. The bikes that I ride are a hodgepodge of the components that I like and what I have handy when I put them together. This is a quite common practice.

The 26.4mm seatpost is questionable. Super Vitus 971 tubing had a wall thickness of 0.9mm at the bottom and 0.6mm at the top (single butted).

With this wall thickness tubing a 28mm (1.102") metric seat tube would normally take a 26.6mm or 26.8mm seatpost. On the other hand a 1 1/8" (28.6mm) inch size seat tube would use a 26.8mm, 27.0mm or 27.2mm seatpost.

A lot of times the tubing at the top of the seat tube is distorted out of round from the high heat generated in brazing the lug and later attaching the 2 seat stays. While a 26.6mm or 26.8mm seatpost would be the correct size for a 28mm metric seat tube the 26.4mm maybe the only size that fits.

Another possibility is that someone used a smaller diameter seatpost and overtightened the seatpost bolt collapsing the seat tube and lug out of round. There should usually be about a 1mm to 2mm gap between the seatpost bolt ears on the lug when tightened. If they are crushed to where the ears contact and there's no gap then the post is usually undersized. But... if it aint broke - don't fix it even if the seatpost is the wrong size.

I have an adjustable reamer that I use to round out the inside of seat tubes. Afterwards I run an automotive brake cylinder hone down the seat tube to get a nice smooth finish that will help keep from scratching the seatpost when installing, removing or adjusting. I also coat the inside of the seat tube and the seatpost with a big glop of waterproof grease before assembly (same thing with the stem).

The 35 x 1 markings on the bottom bracket are 35mm x 1mm - definitely metric threads and probably French. You might try remeasuring the main tube diameters at several points and sides of the 3 main tubes to make sure that they aren't metric diameters.

I have a 1982 Motobecane Team frame with metric Columbus tubing a metric BB and an inch sized fork. I also have a 1988 Peugeot Chorus made of metric diameter Reynolds 753 tubing with inch size BB and headset threads. It uses a 26.8mm seatpost.

Judging from the black rings between the chrome and paint on the forks and stays I'm still thinking that the bike is a Follis frame. Either that or a custom built frame probably from a small French builder.

Chas.

bigmark

Chas,

I'm thinking the same. I founjd a restored Follis with the exact same color (see http://otisrecords.com/fixedgearconversion.htm and scroll way down). If he copied the original color exactly (I e-mailed Otis, but no answer yet), this may support the Follis theory).

What exactly do you mean by 3 piece hub? The hubs appear to be one piece of metal... except for the caps covering the bearing area around the axles?

Thanks Again!
-Mark

verktyg

Otis should have HIS brazeons cut off for butchering a nice extremely rare bike to make a fixie to be tossed away when the fad passes. Mad

The bike he butchered WAS probably well worth restoring! Rolling Eyes

During the late 60s early 70s there were probably never more than a couple hundred thousand pro bikes imported into the US. Many of those have already become Toyotas and Hyundais. It frosts my brazeons to see some fool trash a bike like that! Evil or Very Mad

There are still plenty of gaspipe beater bikes out there and I doubt seriously if many of the fixie fad riders could tell the difference in ride and handling between one of those and a fine racing bike. They're all a step up from their skate boards and Razor scooters! Mad

Getting back to your question, here's a picture of Campy 3 piece hubs. Notice the center is chrome plated steel with aluminum flanges. They stopped making these around 1959. They were also made in small flange versions.

These are Campy Nuovo Tipo hubs. They were Campy's economy model hubs. The bearings were not as well made as Campy's Record hubs but they were better quality than most of the hubs from other brands of that era. They have round holes in the flanges and the Campy winged wheel logo stamped in the center of the hubs (see center of Record hubs below). There are some Nuovo Tipo hubs with the oval flange cutouts like the Record hubs but they are very rare. I have a set and I've only ever seen one other set. Nuovo Tipo hubs also came in a small flange version.

These are Campy's Record road hubs. Campy used the name "Record" for many different kinds of components over the years so it can be confusing. These were the premier hubs from the 60s through the early 80s. They had black spring clips covering an oil hole in the middle of the hub for applying a quick squirt of oil to the bearings. The Campagnolo logo in script lettering is stamped into the center. In good condition these are still some of the smoothest rolling hubs ever made. They also came in small flange and track versions.

Your frame has a Stronglight P3 headset. They were slightly better than generic headsets and they are always coming up on eBay. An improvement would be upgrading to a Stronglight V4 Competition headset also available on eBay.

The V4 has an octagonal lock nut and is approximately the same stack height as the P3 so not a lot of frame modification is required. It's best to have the headtube and fork crown faced off by a competent bike shop with the correct size cutters before installing a replacement headset.

This is a classy bike with a lot of patina and should be enjoyable to ride.

Chas.

bigmark

Dear Chas,

Thanks for all the info. By your description, these are Tipo hubs... with Nuevo Record everything else. Brakes, crank, front DR dont say Nuevo Record... am I safe in assuming they are?)

I would love to ride this bike... but unfortunately I'm 6'7"... and this is a 55cm bike. I would also probably break everything on my first ride (scroll down and see me at http://neuvationcycling.com/teams/teams.html and you'll understand). The bike in the picture is a 61cm (with a 4 foot seatpost) to give you a frame of reference.

I would love to find it a good home. What is the best way to do so? Ebay? What kind of reserve? As you mentioned, I could probably make more money parting the bike out... but I agree with you that would be sacreligious. I would like to see it go to someone who could appreciate and be able to ride it.

Thanks,
Mark