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Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:58 pm |
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verktyg |
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I found these pictures of an old Gitane Tour de France on French eBay. It's a good example of a bike that was probably made for the French domestic market.
http://cgi.ebay.fr/VELO-DE-COURSE-GITANE-ANCIEN-huret-campagnolo-simplex_W0QQitemZ120267363084QQihZ002QQcategoryZ115208QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting
I figure the bike is a late 1960s model because the Mafac brakes say Dural Forge. Around 1969 Mafac changed the name to Racer brakes. Also it has willow leaf shaped caps on the tops of the seat stays. One interesting point is that most of the Gitane Tour de France and Super Corsa frames from this era have a brazed on rear brake cable stop at the top of the seat stays.
It has a Campy headset rather than a Stronglight P3 and Campy BB cable guide instead of Huret. The Brooks B17 saddle and Simplex seatpost are probably not original but I would venture a guess that everything else is.
Note that the forks and rear triangle are not chrome plated and it has Huret dropouts not Simplex. The frame is probably made of Reynolds 531 throughout. The old Reynolds waterslide decals were pretty fragile so they're probably long gone.
I want to point out that this is a top of the line bike with low end Huret Luxe derailleurs! A lot of bikes made for the European market came with cheap derailleurs.
The seller listed this as a 57cm frame but it looks more like a size 60cm. If it were a real 57cm I'd be interested in it. Also, the seller is offering a set of Campy Nuovo Record hubs in place of the sewup wheels with Campy Nuovo Tipo hubs if the buyer wants them.
Chas. |
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Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 10:29 pm |
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Kinst VonSterga |
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Thanks for the link Chas! Its been a crash course in TdF this week and I'm really starting to appreciate the frame I found, especially after seeing all of the other TdF variations that are available.
The lugs look very different (which type?) on this bicycle as the spires/tips look much shorter in length. Other than the stronglight crankset, the rest of the drive-train / pedals look so primitive & budget oriented
Cheers |
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Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 10:38 pm |
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verktyg |
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Kinst,
The lugs on this bike are Prugnat Type S style also referred to as "Italian" style lugs. Gitane used these lugs on all of their top end Reynolds frame bikes from the late 1960s until about 1972 or 73 when they switched to Bocama lugs.
The fork crown was probably made by Wagner.
Chas. |
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:20 am |
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sandranian |
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I love the painted Pivo stem. Also, it is a wonder why this guy didn't clean the bike before posting it. It actually appears to be in great condition, once all of the grease is taken off of it.
I also find it interesting that on most US TdF bikes, the fork decal is cut off at the bottom, making the yellow circle "incomplete". Any ideas why that would be? Also, what are the numbers at the bottom of circle on this decal? |
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:43 am |
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verktyg |
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Stephan,
The stem is a Philippe not a Pivo. Philippe also made this same style with the red paint for Milremo. They were "generally" a little better quality than Pivo stems but still made of cast aluminum.
The only thing that I can think off concerning the fork decals is that maybe the ones that you've seen were damaged. BTW, Back in the day, many of us Gitane owners peeled off the foil decals on the seat tube plus the Gitane top tube and fork decals because they were usually damaged and they looked cheesy.
Chas. |
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Last edited by verktyg on Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:52 am |
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verktyg |
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Kinst VonSterga wrote: |
Other than the stronglight crankset, the rest of the drive-train / pedals look so primitive & budget oriented ![Wink](images/smiles/icon_wink.gif) |
The pedals are the highly touted model Lyotard 460D alloy cage pedals. They still bring a pretty penny on eBay when they come up for auction. I have wide feet so I used to use these on all of my bikes even the "all Campy" ones.
These were some of the lightest pedals available plus they were up to an inch wider than racing style quill pedals of the day. They were the choice of French randonneurs, the folks who ride from city to city throughout France racing the clock. Some of these events are up to a 1000km!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randonneuring
Chas. |
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:34 am |
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sandranian |
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verktyg wrote: |
The stem is a Philippe not a Pivo. Philippe also made this same style with the red paint for Milremo. They were "generally" a little better quality than Pivo stems but still made of cast aluminum.
The only thing that I can think off concerning the fork decals is that maybe the ones that you've seen were damaged. BTW, Back in the day, many of us Gitane owners peeled off the foil decals on the seat tube plus the Gitane top tube and fork decals because they were usually damaged and they looked cheesy.
Chas. |
Oops...my bad about the stem. Still, they look cool.
Regarding the fork decal, I am sure that there was just a bunch that were cut off. Every one that I see on ebay, and the one that I had, were cutoff at the bottom of the yellow circle. Even the repros made by Cyclomondo are the "cutoff" variety. I have only seen one or two with the complete circle. Even the one in the 1970 USA catalogue is cutoff.... |
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:52 am |
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verktyg |
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sandranian wrote: |
Oops...my bad about the stem. Still, they look cool.
Regarding the fork decal, I am sure that there was just a bunch that were cut off. Every one that I see on ebay, and the one that I had, were cutoff at the bottom of the yellow circle. Even the repros made by Cyclomondo are the "cutoff" variety. I have only seen one or two with the complete circle. Even the one in the 1970 USA catalogue is cutoff.... |
Yes I always liked the red trim too. Bertin in France along with Ron Kitching in the UK owned the Milremo trademark. The lower priced Bertin bikes that we sold had these stems up until about 1975.
About the decals, um? Good eyes, I never noticed the cutoff circle. I recall seeing all of them with the circle. I just thought that the photos I've seen on the web with the cut off circles had been damaged. Maybe Gitane got a bunch that were made wrong and used them for years that way?
I remember seeing some Interclubs that had the TdF decals on the forks - "Just ship it!"
Chas. |
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Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:21 am |
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Gtane |
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Thanks for posting the information Chas. It's very much appreciated and a lovely, original, looking bike it is too.
Would the bike have had parallel angles?
Tim |
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Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:19 am |
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verktyg |
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There was a somewhat standard geometry for road racing frames from the late 60s through the mid 70s. This was designed for riding long distances on roads with rough paved surfaces that were common in Europe during that era.
The average angles for many European road racing bikes was 72° parallel head and seat tube with a 55cm to 57cm top tube, a 45-50cm fork rake and about a 100cm to 103cm wheel base. The idea was to make frames that would absorb a lot of road shock but were stable handling so riders could comfortably move around on the bike during a long race.
These angles were usually adjusted for frames under 54cm and over 60cm. You need to change the geometry on smaller frames for front wheel toe clip clearance and move the rider's weight more forward on larger frames so that the rider isn't sitting over the rear axle.
There were also bikes with steeper angles (73° to 75°) designed for more responsive handling in criteriums. Additionally there were frames with longer wheelbases and more fork rake for racing on the "Pave" coblestone roads in Northern France, Belgium and Holland, that area known as "The Hell of the North:.
As roads in Europe improved racing bike geometry also changed to more upright angles and shorter wheelbases. Italian bikes of the mid 70s started coming out with parallel 74°-75° geometry frames that would have been considered only suitable for track racing a few years before.
Not all French bikes had the relaxed frame geometry. My 54cm 1967 Peugeot PX10 has 74° head and seat tubes (it's a harsh riding bike). I also have several early 70s Motobecane racing bikes with parallel 74° angles. They're a little more comfortable because they're 58cm frames.
The more relaxed angles on Gitane racing frames of that era make for very comfortable riding bikes. That's why they're still in demand.
Chas. |
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Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:45 am |
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Gtane |
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Thanks Chas. The 72 parallel rings many positive bells. As you say, the geometry is so important to the rider.
Today, angles don't have the prominence in a bike's description as they once did. I'm a medium!
Here's a wonderful piece of history about the Taylor brothers that was made in the early '80s by a British production company. Great to see it again. The full documentary is about an hour in length. It's a simply delicious clip showing the art of frame building which we know was so common place at that time - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMA8X5pk2kI
Tim |
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Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:10 pm |
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greyhundguy |
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$138.00 sounds like a good price to get it to the US. I paid $30 to get a Saddle here.
Jay
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Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:24 pm |
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Kinst VonSterga |
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Reply from the eBay seller / jeanpaul2044
First, thanks for your interest in this vintage Gitane bike.
There is no evidence of frame sticker / label / or remaining(s) on any tube.
The rear stays diameter and shape would argue for Reynolds, anyway. Also a genuine 531 period label can be provided with.
Yours truly,
- jeanpaul2044 |
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Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:11 pm |
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verktyg |
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Joined: 14 Jan 2007 |
Posts: 2814 |
Location: SF Bay Area |
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The interesting thing about this bike is the lack of chrome on the forks and rear triangle. At some point in the mid 60s Gitane used a "Chrome" mylar foil decal that covered the whole head tube between the top and bottom lugs.
This TdF pictured in the 1968 catalog shows the same Huret Luxe derailleurs and leather saddle as on this bike.
http://www.gitaneusa.com/images/catalog/1968/1968_pg3.jpg
This earlier model TdF has 3 main tubes made of Reynolds 531 with Durifort forks and stays.
http://www.gitaneusa.com/images/catalog/1960_pg1.jpg
Gitane was one of the few large bike makers that used 16mm seat stays like on this bike. That's why I suspect that the frame is all Reynolds. On the other hand Interclub and Track Standard frames were not made with Reynolds but had 16mm seat stays too???
Chas. |
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Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:39 pm |
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verktyg |
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Joined: 14 Jan 2007 |
Posts: 2814 |
Location: SF Bay Area |
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I emailed the seller because the frame looked bigger than 57cm. He was very helpful and emailed me back after rechecking the measurements. It's 57cm Center to Center which makes it a 59cm Center to Top which is how Gitane used to measure their frames. This was listed as a 23 1/2" frame in the US catalogs and would have been a 60cm in the European catalogs.
Too bad that it's too big for me. Someone in the group should jump on this bike, it a rare classic. Save this bike from becoming a fixie!
Chas. |
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