gitaneusa.com :: View topic - Can You Help Me Identify This Frame? Is it a Gitane or Not?

shouteefbock

Hello everyone. I'm going to try and post some pictures here, but if I fall flat on my face I'm hoping to get some help from more knowledgeable members.

This is a frame I picked up about a year ago as a complete bike for $100 at the annual bike swap meet and I was told it was built up around 30 years ago at a now-defunct lbs and it was supposed to be a Gitane. It was an obvious repaint in basic black, no maker or tubing decals, but some pretty nice components:

Original Dura-Ace 170mm cranks and chainweels
Kyokuto Top Run pedals
SunTour VGT Luxe rear der
SunTour VGT front der
Gran Compe stem
SR World Champion bars
SunTour bar-end shifters and downtube cable stops
Weinmann Model 61 centerpull brakes and slotted levers
Weinmann alloy rims on Shimano small-flange hubs
Brooks saddle on an unbranded seatpost

I intended to repaint it over the winter, stripped the components--can't seem to find the headset and bb in my parts mess at the moment--and had it bead blasted. Both the head tube and bottom bracket shell showed signs the original paint was a bright, metallic blue, and I painted it a darker blue that didn't please me but I couldn't decide on a new color so I had it re-blasted and just gave it a quick shot of clearcoat to keep the frame from rusting till I got around to it. Both head lugs and the seat tube lug are windowed, and the head lugs are marked with a "B M" and a number 73 which I assume is the degrees of angle.

Any help in identifying the model/year of manufacture/tubing type would be greatly appreciated as I'm planning on shipping it off to Joe Bell Bicycle Refinishing in San Diego and would love to restore it with period-correct decals. The serial number stamped into the bb shell is 2125 313.

verktyg

Welcome to the forum.

The frame is a 1975 or 76 Gitane Tour de France or similar European version.

The first indicator is Huret honeycomb rear dropouts. They were not very popular and were only used for a few years in the mid 1970s. Gitane was the main customer for these dropouts. They were found on US Tour de France and Interclub models plus a few European models. I only recall ever seeing them on 1 or 2 non Gitane bikes.

Second feature is the swaged over seat stay tops on 16mm seat stays. Gitane started using this method on their road and track racing models in the early 1970s.

The lugs are Bocama "Super Professional" Long Point Lugs. They didn't start making them with the V cutouts until at least 1975. "B M" is actually BCM which stands for Bocama. The number 73 indicates the head tube (and seat tube) angle. You can usually find another number 61 or similar on the bottom head tube lug.

The 3 main tubes are made with Reynolds 531 butted tubes. The stays and forks may or may not be Reynolds.

Do you have the original fork? It should be chrome plated with paint on the upper half.

None of the braze-ons except shift lever stop under the down tube are original. The brake cable guides on the top tube, the rack eyelets on the seat stays, the derailleur cable stop on the right chain stay, the pump peg on the seat stay, the water bottle fittings and the derailleur cable guide have all been added later using "silver solder" or more correctly silver brazing alloy. See how light gray the silver braze is compared to the darker yellow of the rest of the braze material around the lugs and dropouts.

BTW, the Weinmann brakes are model 610 not 61. They look similar to these:
http://www.velobase.com/ViewSingleComponent.aspx?ID=A9668CCB-8833-4AA7-9CC0-D6574B9E8E3D&Enum=117&AbsPos=12

Weinmann also made some 600 and 605 side pull brakes.

There were also some Italian made Universal model 61 center pull brakes:
http://www.velobase.com/ViewSingleComponent.aspx?ID=B31ECBBE-0237-4C51-A43B-3F2251670E67&Enum=117&AbsPos=5

You can get replacement decals from Cyclomondo on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Early-Gitane-decal-set-complete-yellow-or-green-choice_W0QQitemZ300211719420QQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116#ebayphotohosting

I only recall mid 70s Tour de France models in blue and silver. Blue bikes had yellow decals and silver, green.

One added note. The guys down in Southern California who paint bikes all tend to use WAY TO MUCH clear coat. The original paint jobs were never exceptionally shiny. Ask Joe Bell not to use excess clear coat if you want the bike to look something like a 70s model.

Good luck,

Chas.

greyhundguy

Shouteefbock(aka?),
I agree with Chas. regarding your frame. Attached is a photo of my 74-75 "Interclub" frame showing the shorter version Bocama lugs for comparison.

Note also, that his observation of the added braze ons is correct.

That's a BIG frame...you must have Looooong Legs Wink

Jay

shouteefbock · Last edited by shouteefbock on Tue Oct 07, 2008 6:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

Chas and Jay, many thanks for the replies and the pertinent observations. Call me Richard. Like the braze-ons (guess that explains the black paint job) the fork I have is apparently not original as it's all chrome and a Tange Model 6.G. Chas, the brakes are Universal Model 61 and I'm adding some pix of the fork and brakes.

At one time in my life, lo these many years ago, I may have threatened 6' but gravity and diet have conspired to pound me down to size. I've got a 31" inseam and am pretty much average in other respects but am really happy and comfortable on big frames, the kind I can just straddle.

Trek road bikes from inception to '87 are my primary collecting and riding interest and they are mostly 25.5/65 frames; anything smaller than 58cm leaves me feeling cramped and all hunched over. Chas, I've got a '77 Trek TX300 full restoration that is due back from Joe Bell in a couple of weeks and if it's not considered rank heresy, I'll post some photos to share the finished product. I really appreciate the link to decals and wonder if someone knows just what type of paint was used on models like mine?

Messed up for a bit on the image code, thumbs are mo betta....

greyhundguy

Richard,
From the leftover residue, shown in your photo of the Bottom Bracket, it would appear to have been originally painted "Gitane Blue". (Attached photo from the 1976 Catalog on this site)

It's not a Metallic, but a "Candy" type (not Opaque) color.

Because of all the previous owner alterations, and likely component changes, I would personally paint and rebuild to suit me and how I want to ride.

We all look forward to your progress to completion.

Regards,
Jay

verktyg

shouteefbock

I got home from work a bit late yesterday and found a box from Joe Bell Bicycle Refinishing on my front porch. It contained this Tour de France in all it's repainted glory. The color is darker than Gitane Blue and metallic, but it looks glorious. I'm stuck at work all day and the IT boys block access to all the interesting sites like Photobucket, where I've got pictures uploaded, and Craigslist, where I do a lot of my miscellaneous shopping. I'll post some of the finished pics later tonight.

My concern now is that in the mish-mash of moving all my parts around several times during the last few months I seem to have misplaced the ziploc bag containing the bottom bracket, so it looks like I'll have to go in search of a new replacement. Can one of the resident experts tell me if this bb is French or British, and what size spindle I'll require to change the crankset over to a triple? TIA.

Richard

verktyg

Richard,

Glad that you got your frame back and it looks good. Joe Bell has a very good reputation.

The paint miss match is something that I've seen happen with a lot of bike painters/restorers, especially the likes of CycleArt. I think that a lot of these folks use whatever paint they have sitting around that's close to the original. Buying small quantities of the modern paints used on frames is very expensive. I heard of one situation where a pint of special mixed color paint cost $77! Shocked

I go by the 5 foot rule. If you don't notice something (such as a touch-up or repaint job) from 5 feet away then it's a success. I can spot a CycleArt respray from 20 feet away: color, decals and excessive clearcoat!

Gitane used French (metric) threads in their bottom brackets until they switched to British threads sometime in the 1980s.

What make and model crankset are you going yo use?

Chas.

shouteefbock

Chas thanks for the reply. Sorry to be so slow getting back to this but life has been hectic lately. Surprise of surprises, the bottom bracket was English threaded not French. Here are a few pics; one of the frame itself and three of the almost-finished build. It seems that either Gitane did not use a standard 8x21mm seatpost binder bolt or the holes have been deformed just enough that an 8mm binder won't fit. If anyone can straighten me out on this I'd be grateful because I'm reluctant to drill it out and ruin the surrounding paint even though I've got a bit of touch-up paint.

As for the components I tried to use what came with the bike and just cleaned them up where I could. The Gran Compe stem, SR Radonneur bars and Shimano bar-end shifters were on the bike, ditto for the Suntour dt cable stop and the Shimano 600 Arabesque front derailleur; the Gran Compe levers and hoods are NOS and the Dia Compe black anodized centerpulls look much nicer to me than the Universal 61s that came with the bike; the rear derailleur is a Shimano 600 Arabesque to match the front and replaces a Suntour VGT-Luxe; the Dura-Ace bottom bracket is NOS to match up with the 1st-gen DA cranks and chainweels and the pedals are Shimano 600; the wheels are Campy Victory Strada tubular rims with Campy Tipo large-flange hubs and Tufo tires; the Brooks Professional saddle and generic seatpost came with the bike as did a Blackburn rear rack which I've not yet installed because I want to have it anodized black the same way I did the chainrings.

http://s270.photobucket.com/albums/jj102/shouteefbock/75%20Gitane%20Tour%20de%20France/75%20TdeF%20Joe%20Bell%20Repaint/

http://s270.photobucket.com/albums/jj102/shouteefbock/75%20Gitane%20Tour%20de%20France/Build/

shouteefbock

Chas and Jay--

Do you think this may be an Interclub rather than a Tour de France? I have read some discussion about the Tour de France having chromed chainstays and this bike definitely did not have chromed stays. Also, I wonder if the seatpost diameter of 26.0 was common with Reynolds 531 tubing?

verktyg

This is most likely a Gitane Interclub frame. Gitane Tour de France frames from that era would probable have 1/2 chrome plated seat and chain stays. The cost of chrome increased drastically around 1974-75 so many bike makers cut down on plating.

A metric Reynolds 531 frame should take a 26.4mm seatpost. The 26mm would seem to indicate that the frame is made of heavier wall thickness tubing but seatpost size is no guaranty.

The 1972 Gitane Super Corsa that I bought last month had a 25.8mm Campagnolo Nuovo Record seatpost instead of the standard 26.4mm. It appears to be factory original. The seat tube, top tube lug is the hardest to braze and very easy to over heat causing warpage or bulging inside the tubes or lugs.

The one on my SC frame was way out of round. I had to drive a 26.2mm tool down the seat tube to round it out and them ream it out to 26.4mm.

Chas.

shouteefbock

Thanks Chas. No more masquerading as a TdeF I'll just call it an Interclub. One last question. My interclub will not take a 'standard' 8x22 seat post binder bolt and I have a nut/bolt with notched head that fits in the clamp and looks just like the one in this photo; it's pretty cheesy but it fits and if it was stock I'll use it rather than drill out the holes to accept a prettier 8x22. Also, this Interclub has the remnants of a Reynolds sticker in view.

vanhelmont

Your bike is three main tubes 531. This was common practice for mid level frames, to use a better (or more marketable) tubing for the main tubes and a cheaper, often nameless tubing for the stays. An Interclub being a pretty nice bike, the stays and fork might be durifort or some other good quality tubing. Chas says the stays and fork have more effect on the ride quality than the main tubes, but unfortunately you are usually left to guess what they might be.

Since you have a 26 mm seat post, with a 28 mm seat tube, you have about a 1.0 or 0.9 mm wall thickness, consistent with straight gauge 531.

You have done a great job on this bike.

Dave

verktyg

I've seen a few of the later Interclubs with the 3 main tubes made of Reynolds 531. The 531 stickers were usually on the down tube just above the shift levers (same with the Tour de France honeycomb dropout bikes).

Also I think the first 1974 TdFs that came in with the Huret honeycomb rear dropouts may have had painted rear stays. They had Huret Challenger derailleurs which were viewed as a step down from the "plastic" Simplex derailleurs. Rolling Eyes

In retrospect, the Huret Challenger derailleurs even with their partially stamped steel construction, turned out to be very good shifters.... but they were cursed with the image of the millions of Huret Allvit and Svelto derailleurs that were sold on junk bikes.

"If you sleep with dogs, you get fleas."

Huret Allvit

Huret Svelto

The older foil decal TdFs were designed to compete directly against the similarly equipped Peugeot PX-10 bikes, also Raleigh Competitions. All 3 of these bikes had full Reynolds 531 frames and reasonable wheels. The rest of the components were moderate priced parts which were less important for good ride and performance than the frame and wheels. They all sold for around $300 which was the sweetspot for an entry level performance bike.

By 1974 the French fascination with mylar foil decals was waining. They scratched easily and looked terrible on beat up older bikes. The new Gitane decals that came out in 1974 were made of more scratch resistant material but they still looked cheesy. Combined with the Huret honeycomb rear dropouts which far from being "unique" made the bikes look cheap especially with the Huret derailleurs.

The 1974 honeycomb dropout TdF was a disappointment compared to the previous versions plus it was extremely overpriced, around $400 if I remember correctly. Gitane downgraded the frame from full Reynolds to 3 main tubes, they changed to a weird looking design and they went with unpopular Huret derailleurs. We only brought a few of the 1974-76 TdFs into our shop to check them out. Not only were they overpriced, they were hard to get from the importers.

It would be a lot easier to tell for sure if you had the original fork and headset. TheTdFs had half chrome forks with Huret dropouts and a chrome plated Bocama fork crown. Interclubs had stamped steel dropouts in the fork.

The headset on the TdFs would have been a Stronglight P3, with a no-name headset on the Interclub. The Stronglight name is usually located on the part cups that go into the head tube and the fork crown race. Also they sometimes have Stronglight on the "toothed" washer that locks the adjustable cup.

As far as I know, Gitane didn't use any straight gage Reynolds 531 tubing so it's safe to assume that your frame is made of butted main tubes. Theres a possibility that the TdFs and Interclubs had the same frames for a short period. Only the forks and components were different.

The nut for the seatpost bolt pictured in the previous message is on backwards. There should be a washer the size of the round part of the nut under the nut. You can file the hole out a little with a small round file so that the bolt fits easily.

I suggest that you check out the rear of the seat lug to make sure that it hasn't been crushed down too much to fit a smaller diameter seatpost.

The slot should look straight like this:

Not crushed like this one:

If your seat lug is crushed closed too much then a 26.4mm seatpost wont fit. You can "gently" spread the "ears" apart with a pry bar or large screw driver being careful not to bend the tubing around the slot. If this is the case, sometimes just spreading the ears is enough. Other times you need to drive something round into the seat tube to make it round again. Be sure to use a tool that you can extract.

Good luck.

Chas.