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Wisey

yes, who would have thought that you could win a TT without aero bike, wheels, helmet etc? Good to see the top riders ditch some of the accessories in favour of a practical bike that suits the course.

Wisey

I still say Leipheimer. Of menchov, diluca and basso, who has a team that can withstand astana? they are just being patient I think. leipheimer 1st, menchov 2nd, basso 3rd. diluca will be the big loser because he will fight every stage like it was his last day on earth (which I admire greatly) but this will be his undoing.

scozim

Wisey - that may be a good call. I'd like to see Leipheimer a little more aggressive, but he's still also got plenty of time.

Some of the recent climbs are unbelievable - 12-16% grades at times. I thought for sure one of those breakaway riders was going to fall over on that 16% grade in Saturday's stage. I've got a short one I do intervals on that peaks at 19% and it's all I can do to get up it 5 times and then head home absolutely exhausted. I couldn't imagine going up a longer distance in a race.

sandranian · Site Admin

I am going to go out on a limb and predict that Leipheimer's shot at the Giro ends tomorrow. He is going to get dropped when it counts.

Wisey

could be that those steep ones finish him off. I kinda like Leipheimer though............. mostly because he has a good ol' fashioned steel bike to train on in the winter monthers when the media are not watching. A Land Shark.

I'm expecting Basso to go out the hoop when it gets steep too.

scozim

Wisey

I hope you bought a lotto ticket yesterday Sandman. Nice call Wink

sandranian · Site Admin

First off, I am not a Leipheimer fan, so I usually bet against him. I don't like his riding style or his attitude, which appears to be like the worst stereotype of the road rider. Who knows though...maybe he is the nicest guy on the planet, but this is just my impression.

Second,he has never in his career been able to really stick it out in a grand tour. I think he was built for the one week stage races...

Wisey

Although, I wouldn't mind betting that he (Leipheimer) along with Mick Rodgers are the cleanest of the leading riders in that race..........

sandranian · Site Admin

"Cleanest"? Are there degrees of "clean"? Just what are you saying, Wisey???

Wisey

Yes there are, absolutely! One of the common practices before a TT is to inject bi-carbonate into the blood stream. Being Alkaline, it gives a buffer against the effect of lactic acid build up. Perfectly legal as it's not on any banned list. But is this doping? I'll leave that up to the individual to decide as I'm not trying to start arguments here. All Pro's are using products and practices that may or may not be technically legal. A new blood boosting product that is not yet on the banned list is technically not against the rules........ but is this doping? Where do we draw the lines? When I was racing in the early 90s, many guys I knew were using products (available over the counter & in bike shops) that were legal at the time and are now banned. So yes, I think doping goes beyong the list of banned substances. But the reality is that any product or practice that is not prohibited, is therefore technically not doping.

I don't know what these guys are or are not doing any more than the rest of you, but I do have reliable friends who know Mick, and have worked with him. Mick Rodgers is clean. Period. I've never met him, so it's not a personal thing, and you'll also note that I make no defense of any other aussie rider.

Then there are guys who while being recognised as talented one day riders, and who are mostly anonymous for most of the year, come out for the Giro or the Vuelta and proceed to stick it to the best TTers in the TTs, and stick it to the best climbers in the mountains.......... c'mon, gimme a break!

Like I said, Levi and Mick might be the cleanest of the leading riders. I'd like to believe otherwise, but I can't.

sandranian · Site Admin

Caffiene was a prohibited product in the 1980's. Is drinking a cup of coffee before a ride doping? What about eating? That certainly helps you ride.

Doping is clearly defined by a banned products list...just like cheating in monopoly is clearly defined. If it is on the list and it shows up in your body, you are cheating. I don't believe there is any "degree" to it, and neither does the code.

By the way, I think McEwan is out of the tour after breaking his shinbone yesterday. That really is too bad, as he always makes things fun....

Wisey

Yes, that's my point. Oxygen is a performance enhancer too, but should we ban breathing?

Here's a good read. I'm not interested in the LA issue, but it shows how the testing does/does not work.

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden

I guess my point is:

a) Some guys are using banned products and getting caught because they are not smarter than the testers.

b) Some guys are using banned products and getting away with it for a whole bunch of scientific or legal reasons, or because they are smarter than the testers.

c) Some guys are using products that are not yet banned and are therefore truly innocent in the eyes of the rules.

d) Some guys are using products that have been agreed are OK to us, but have a proven artificial benefit like caffeine or creatine or bi-carb etc.

I wasn't trying to claim that Mick or Levi are morally better than DiLuca or Basso. Just trying to point out that a guy can be in the top 10 and be (relatively) clean.

What I find difficult is the artificial lines that we draw between all these different products. Then to further complicate matters, we base the rules of arbitrary quantities. Thus, it's OK to use a little bit of synthetic EPO, but not a lot of it like our old friend Mr 60% Riis.

This was always a part of the sport, and I think it always will be and that's OK. Lets get off the moral high horse. If these young fools want to win the TdF a few times with the price being their early death in their 40s, well so be it. They aren't harming many others (except their family & friends). Tragic? Yes. End of the sport? No.

Yes I believe in degrees. We all have different levels of honesty when doing our taxes, but few of us actually break the law in the process.

sandranian · Site Admin

The one nice thing there is about the anti-doping code is there are no "degrees". If you are over the limit, you are doping. Period. The anti-doping code does not ban all performance enhancing substances (i.e. caffiene). But it sets limits for what you can and cannot do. If you aren't over the limit (and not engaging in an illegal "method"), then you aren't cheating.

As far as letting the riders assume the risk, I think that in theory, it is nice, but in practice, it would kill the sport...and some of the riders. I know I wouldn't watch it anymore if I knew that it was all about "better performance through science."