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Wisey

Wow, so much to respond to......

Ok, 1. First point for brake cable goes back to pre-aero brake lever days. If it was any further forward, the cable would have looped up and FORWARD rather than the graceful arc tha we are accustomed to. While this may seem like trivial aesthetics, it also would have meant using a longer length of cable.

Now to aero-brake levers. If the cable exits from the tape at the centre of the bar it must then to a very tight turn in order to contact that entry port. With a contact point further down the tube, the cable can loop out and around the HT, giving a softer turn and thus less friction on the cable itself. The only way you are going to get acceptable braking with that design is if you use a longer section of cable and let it loop forward of the bars before turning anf coming back to the HT. Like an S bend, if you will. This is not going to make a set of Dura Ace dual pivots perform like rusty old Weinmann 500's, but they will not be perfect. And I like perfect.

2. I'm not a blind traditionalist, but we have lost so much knowledge in this industry in the past 30 years it's just not funny. All these big bike companies are coming up with "solutions" to problems that were solved decades ago. Quite often there is a very simple rational reason as to "why" it's always been done that way. But we've lost that knowledge, so we blame it on mindless tradition.

3. I'll have a Guinness, thank-you. Wink

4. Perhaps I can learn to love her? Here's a little experiment for you: Go tell your wife she's butt ugly, but that in all the years you've been together she's slowly growing on you......... Twisted Evil

See where that gets you Wink

(Caveat: I have seen a pic of Mrs Sandman, and she is an astonishingly beautiful woman)

5. Napkins, check. Wine, check. Plane ticket to USA......... uh, I'll have to get back to you on that one Laughing

.

6. Raining. Oh man, we are having dust storms here. What I would give for some rain! Rolling Eyes

Gtane

Wisey,

I'm with you on the front end. It doesn't look too great but I do commend Gitane for trying to get around the issue of loose cables ruining head tube paint work, or indeed making the aesthetics more pleasing and integrated. Utilising the old downtube lever bosses has been the norm for far too long now. Most annoying. However, it's good to see other manufacturers overcoming the same issue, for example; I really like the top tube cable entry that Cervelo use. I also agree with you that virtually everything has been done before and that much knowledge is indeed changing or evolving but harks back to times gone by. On that note, it was interesting to read recently of Gary Fisher's excitement on wishing to design triathlon bikes where they would not be subject to UCI regulations, where design and development could be progressed more widely.

All,

Good news on the steel front. I was recently at the London Cycle Show and came across many steel machines from virtually all brands. There is definitely a mainstream move with steel and not as a retro, fun or fad idea, as a serious move towards making light affordable machines that will hopefully have a place once more in the pro ranks.

Here's a very impressive and very light stainless steel from Columbus - XCr. Further info. - http://tinyurl.com/yfakrla Complete steel framed bikes of 16 and 17lbs are comfortably possible, even lighter.

Here's an impressive 12.5lb example of a steel carbon machine - http://tinyurl.com/yz8fsr7

Another stainless steel development and process, and its use for bicycle tubing, came to light recently from a company called KVA. Further info. can be found here - http://tinyurl.com/mxtyvo

So lots happening with steel in general, including Reynolds and 953. I'm sure we will see more machines being made from lighter steels over the coming years and a move back into the sales space that carbon currently dominates.

Tim

Wisey

Sorry to be an old stick in the mud guys. I love innovation and further development of the bicycle. I am really encouraged by Gary Fisher's comments. I'll also say that the sooner the Grand Tours get together and start a rival cycling series, the better. The UCI needs to sink. I won't go on a rant about that as it will take me a week to type it out. But, back to design: My biggest gripe with the "innovations" of today is that they are not innovations and are simply the marketing people trying to find some small aspects of product differentiation. It's a very competitive market out there. The reason that the companies are so focused on these trivial (re-) innovations, is because of the absurd UCI regulations on bicycle design which prevents any real innovation from taking place. Perhaps triathlon can become the test bed for innovation and let cycling catch up in another decades time, as was the case with aero bars.

Re: modern steel bikes. My llewellyn is made from the new Columbus Niobium as posted by Gtane. Wonderful frame. Without a doubt the best frame I have ever owned. All the lovely aspects of steel that we remember so fondly. As stiff as a good carbon bike. But if constructed with lugs, as mine is, a weight penalty. Built with Chorus 10 speed and training wheels = 9.4kg. With carbon race wheels = 8.9kg. So, you can see that while being an awesome bike, the weights really haven't changed in 20 - 30 years. (59cm frame)

But....... if you were to use this tube set and build a compact design, lugless....... you could certainly shave a good chunk of weight off.

Gtane

Good thoughts Wisey and good to hear that you too read Gary Fisher's ideas. I'm looking forward to seeing what the developments will be.

You have a lovely machine there in Niobium. These new steels are really quite special. The industry has not had material like we have today, for years, probably not since the emergence of 531. 753 could be argued as being an intermediary, possibly titanium too. With carbon being so affordable and versatile right now it might take a little time for steel to come back with a gusto as the commodity market readjusts.

Along with these new materials, weight is now immaterial. It really is all about the rider, even more so than before. It's quite something to know that even entry level machines made from various materials now tip the scales at under 20lbs. We're certainly blessed with choice like never before. A sub 20lb machine would have been from another planet when I was lad.

Tim

Wisey

BTW - I may be a bit critical of what I believe are some obvious flaws in these new gitanes, but I still want one Wink

.

sandranian · Site Admin

Peter S. Horn

S.A.,
Thanks much for the additional pictures. Again, checking said pictures against Nicolas' similar ones, some of the latter seem very close to yours, except that several of his appear to exhibit the standard (non-integrated) seatpost. From my perspective, if available, the latter would seem to solve the problem.

All,
Re the steel discussion, particularly given Gitane's rich history, my view has been for years, that the firm definitely should bring back the steel velos; in particular, an S/C and TDF revival. Two frames in Reynolds 953 would be de rigueur; one with Shimano dropouts (TDF), the other with Campagnolo (S/C)! Let the buyer equip same to her/his specifications. One of each Gitane, sil vous plait!
Bienvenue,
Peter H.

sandranian · Site Admin

So...I just received a Gitane 2010 catalogue from Cycleurope (Nicolas...no need to send me one!). As we suspected, there are two of the high-end models available. The frameset is called "The One", and there is a model available with a seatpost ("The One") and with an integrated seatpost ("The One ISP"). Both come with full carbon forks (including the ends) at 335g. The ISP version weighs 1,090g (55cm version), while The One is 900g. This, I would presume, is because it does not include the weight of the seatpost. Interestingly, it does not appear that these bikes are available in red, as was shown in Nicolas' picture.

They have an option where you can "build your own" bike, with either Shimano or Campagnolo (dura ace and Super Record are options).

The catalogue itself is huge and very impressive. There are also more Gitane branded accessories, which is usually a good sign, including a carbon bottle cage. The only drawback is that they only mention manufacturing ("designgin, manufacturing, and assembling") the bicycles at their plant at Romilly-Sur-Seine, and not at Machecoul (the Romilly plant was originally a Peugeot factory). All in all I am pretty happy about the whole thing. I will scan the relevant pages and post them ASAP.

Wisey

ISP: Incredibly Silly Post? Twisted Evil

Colours: Just get it paintes blue and put '84 decals on it. Rolling Eyes

sandranian · Site Admin

Silly Aussie!

Wisey

On another note, Holstar, the company that has the rights to Gitane here have nothing on their website regarding 2010 Gitanes. I am wondering if this apparent resurgenge of the brand in Europe is causing some changes to how they do business here. I would love to see them import the Euro models rather than spec'ing their own asian models.

sandranian · Site Admin

So...the 2010's are finally online at www.velo-oxygen.fr

The top of the line Gitane "Definitive" (called "The One") is available with an integrated seatpost or an adjustable one. Both retail (frameset only) for 1,999 Euro.

I figure that if you subtract the VAT tax (19.6%), the total price is 1,610 Euro, which is (sadly) about $2,400 US. When you add in some shipping (figure $200), plus some bottle cages ($100), you are talking $2,700 for the frameset, delivered.

Wisey

"ouch"

sandranian · Site Admin

Isn't that what framesets sell for nowadays? For example:

Cervelo S3 - $3,600 on "closeout" from Excel Sports
Cervelo S2 - $2,240 on "closeout" from Excel Sports
Trek Madone 6.9 - $3,449 from Helens Cycles

To name a few. Now I am NOT arguing that these are reasonable prices for what you are getting, just the facts....

Wisey

"ow!

Stop it!"