gitaneusa.com Forum Index » Vintage Gitane » Gitane 753 Frame, need help! Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next    View previous topic :: View next topic  Gitane 753 Frame, need help!   Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:25 am Holger Joined: 27 Feb 2008 Posts: 62 Location: Germany/Stuttgart So i`ve got this frame, build with 753 Reynolds tubing except the fork wich is 531, the frame has no number. O.k. there is not really any space left for a number on that bb housing. It seems it was never built up and ridden, cause there are no signs of screws or wear. Sadly it was bad stored cause it has some rust all over the frame. The paintwork looks so thin that you can read Brev.Camp. even on the cable guide. I like that frame, its very much understatement, cause it looks like an ordinary one from 1978, my plans are to do a complete repaint, and to build it up with the lightest or best parts available from that era. I still got a nos Campa SR Brake set , alloy freewheel and a titanium spindle with french cups for the start. The only part that came with the frame is an edco competition headset. 1. what does 3/10 exactly mean? 2. what are these two drilled holes at the right dropout good for? 3. any tips about the restoration of a 753 frame (weakness of the material etc.) 4. o.k. i like Campa but what were the lightest or best parts from the era from other companys? thanks a lot, Holger   Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:51 am Wisey Joined: 19 May 2009 Posts: 631 Location: Brisbane, Australia Very nice Holger. I've never seen another Gitane with a machined out BB shell like that. Anyone else? Perhaps it was done at a later date? Chas, when did 753 start? I think there were no 753 fork blades, they were just 531 that came with the 753 set?????? Chas? Hmmm, never seen star reinforcments on biddon screws on a gitane either? (***edit: you can see the biddon boss stars in the 1978 catalogue, but the top model "olympic" is 531) Perhaps you've stumbled across a custom build? Team bike? Bike modified by user and re-painted? _________________ Kind Regards, Wisey Delta Dreamin'   Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:10 pm Gtane Joined: 14 Sep 2007 Posts: 681 Location: UK Holger, Nice frame, well done indeed. Most interesting. There are many hallmarks of quality about the find - lugs, bottom bracket and dropouts. The 753 transfer is an early one, from the first phase of 753 that is - late '70s to early '80s. So this could be a very exciting find. Wisey is right about the star bottle cage mounts. They're unusual. The bottom bracket, seat stays and seat clamp bracket point me towards Raleigh, but that's just a guess. It might be an early Raleigh frame badged Gitane, as Raleigh were right at the forefront of 753 framebuilding in the '70s through Gerald O'Donovan, and many teams wanted that technology at the time. If this is the case, and this is purely wild guess work on my part, and the frame was destined to become a Gitane via a third party, indeed any third party, then this could well be of team issue but that's purely a hunch. Alternatively, it could have been resprayed by a previous owner or have been made by Gitane. Judging by Gitane detail through this site this would have been a special frame if it was indeed originated by them. There's no number tag, but then that's not necessarily an absolute indicator of a team machine at all, just a detail. Are there any further frame details - for example, serial numbers / info. on the fork head tube or the lugs? If this is a team frame then 531 forks may well have been used. The great thing about team bikes is that they never follow the norm, they're very much a work in progress and provide the very best to the rider for the job in hand. So it's highly probable that 531 forks would have been combined with a 753 frame. Regards restoration, take lots and lots of photos of the frame as is, including the transfers, so you'll have a record as you build. It would be worth sourcing an original 753 transfer rather than a copy but that might be tougher than expected as they are rare. It might also be worth taking the frame to someone who can confirm that it is 753. Here's a 753 team Gitane of 1981 which might offer further information; http://tinyurl.com/y9nvaes Good luck with the project and do keep us posted with progress. Thanks for posting. Tim Last edited by Gtane on Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:26 pm; edited 2 times in total _________________ Everything has a cycle Re: Gitane 753 Frame, need help!   Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:19 pm verktyg Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 2814 Location: SF Bay Area Holger wrote: 1. what does 3/10 exactly mean? 2. what are these two drilled holes at the right dropout good for? 3. any tips about the restoration of a 753 frame (weakness of the material etc.) 4. o.k. i like Campa but what were the lightest or best parts from the era from other companys? WOW! Nice frame... EDITORIAL: The first suggestion for a frame like this is: build it up and ride it for a little while before you repaint it. Most of that rust looks like it's just a stain on the surface of the paint. You should be able to clean it up with some automotive rubbing compound or car wax with polish in it. That's a pretty rare frame. Many frames made of Reynolds 753 were built for teams and were never readily available for purchase by the general public (see answer to question number 1. below for reasons). Once you repaint it, the frame will loose all of it's historical value and probably much of it's resale value. If you don't like the way it rides then you're stuck with just another repaint! I have VERY strong opinions about destroying a piece of history. The frame is ~30 years old and a rare antique! If the paint (or chrome) was badly damaged then repainting would be an acceptable option. Scratches and minor paint chips on a frame that old are TOTALLY acceptable and considered patina. Once you build it up with components, they become less noticeable! Some would say, "It's you frame, do with it what you like." but I don't necessarily agree with that, at least not before I try to persuade someone against destroying a rare piece of cycling history! END OF EDITORIAL Now on to you're questions: 1. "what does 3/10 exactly mean?" 3/10 means 0.3mm (.012") wall thickness in the thinnest part of the butted top tube. The butted ends of the top tube were probably 7/10 - 0.7mm (0.28") thick. You can actually squeeze the top tube between you thumb and finger and feel it bend (well, at least I can). Reynolds first introduced 753 tubing in 1975. It was made from extremely thin wall 531 tubing that was heat treated to about 50% higher strength and called 753. I can't find my old tubing spec sheets but I think that the seat tube and down tube were 5/10 - in the thin sections and 7/10 in the butted ends (the top and down tubes are the only double butted tubes, Reynolds seat tubes are single butted). For some unknown reason the 1st generation 753 was only available in metric diameter tubes. Frame builders and manufacturers had to submit test samples of brazed 753 tubing to Reynolds before they would provide the tubing. The rational for this was the tubing was so thin that it required a very high level of brazing skill to assemble a 753 frame without damaging the tubing from overheating. Reynolds didn't want to have people riding around on frames made with their new premium high performance tubing experiencing frame failures. The bike culture was/is rampant with rumors, urban mythes and old spouse' tales. If one self proclaimed "EXPERT" had a frame failure for whatever reason with one of these frames then Reynolds 753 tubing was no good and bad reputations spread like wildfire. It happened in this country in the mid 70s with Super Vitus 971 tubing. Several poorly built custom frames had chainstay failures and SV 971 was blacklisted forever by the racing set! http://www.classicrendezvous.com/British_isles/reynolds/Reynolds753artl.htm Over the years, because 753 is so thin there have been quite a few frame failures (usually cracked chainstays or main tubes at the bottom bracket) so there aren't very many all original 1st generation 753 frames left. In the early 80s (1983?) Reynolds introduced a 2nd generation 753 tubing. It was available in either metric or Imperial (inch size) diameters. There was a version for road frames - 753R which had slightly thicker wall thickness tubes and a track version - 753T which probably maintained the same wall thickness as the 1st generation 753. 2. what are these two drilled holes at the right dropout good for? They were made to hold the Campagnolo a 'C' shaped piece that was part of the Porta Catena system that allowed for fast wheel changes during a race. The system consisted of the 'C' ring and special shift levers that allowed you to shift the chain on and off of the 'C' ring attached to the dropout. These were used with 6 speed hubs and 5 speed freewheels. You had to sacrifice 1 cog to use the Porta Catena. They were never that popular but for a time all Campy 1010/b right side dropouts had the holes. I've only seen 1 or 2 Porta Catena setups in real life. 3. any tips about the restoration of a 753 frame (weakness of the material etc.) See all of the above... Frames made of Reynolds 753 tubing were designed for use by experienced riders with a supple, smooth pedaling style. They wont hold up to constant sprinting or "masher" pedaling by a strong, heavy rider. I've seen recommendations limiting rider weight to 150 Lbs. ~68 kg. For causal riding or time trials there shouldn't be much problem with a heavier rider but a 60cm frame is going to be pretty flexible. This could mean a nice smooth comfortable ride to one person or "whippy" to another. I weigh 225 Lbs. ~102 kg and I have two Reynolds 753 bikes that I ride. 4. o.k. i like Campa but what were the lightest or best parts from the era from other companys? Well, first my prejudices: most of my all Campy bikes came equipped that way. Here's how I look at it, "Oh No! It's another all Campy bike!" Your frame may have been sold as a frame only. Many 753 frames were marketed that way. If it was ever sold as a complete bike it would probably have been equipped with all Campy Super Record components (although a lot of 753 bikes that I've seen head Edco headsets??? ). I'm not a big fan of titanium bottom brackets, especially those made by Campy. Campagnolo used Commercially Pure Titanium instead of a much stronger Titanium Alloy like TI6Al-4V which can be heat treated to 2-3 times the strength of common steel. If your Ti bottom bracket has bolts to hold the crank arms on, DON"T USE IT! Campy switched to a different style BB spindle that used nuts instead of bolts because they had so many failures with the original style. Another thing, back in the day when I was riding a lot and weighed 175 Lbs. ~80 kg, I tried a titanium BB spindle for a while. I found that it was too flexible for sprints or honking out of the saddle! The lightest derailleurs were the Huret Jubilee models. I found them to be very flimsy and fragile, especially the front one. The original Suntour Cyclone derailleurs were very light and much more substantial plus they shifted very well. Note: clamp needs to be filed to fit 28mm seat tube. Another excellent choice would be the Huret Success rear derailleur. It was made of titanium and aluminum alloy parts. It's very light and shifts extremely well plus it has a freewheel capacity up to 28T. The rest is up to you. If it were mine, I'd probably equip it with Campy SR (and keep the Edco headset). Remember, light usually also means flimsy, flexible, weak and short lived. Good luck, don't paint it and post pictures. Chas. Retrogrouch! Last edited by verktyg on Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:04 pm; edited 2 times in total Edited reply   Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:55 pm verktyg Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 2814 Location: SF Bay Area Gtane wrote: The bottom bracket, seat stays and seat clamp bracket point me towards Raleigh, but that's just a guess. It might be an early Raleigh frame badged Gitane, as Raleigh were right at the forefront of 753 framebuilding in the '70s through Gerald O'Donovan, and many teams wanted that technology at the time. If this is the case, and this is purely wild guess work on my part, and the frame was destined to become a Gitane via a third party, indeed any third party, then this could well be of team issue but that's purely a hunch. Alternatively, it could have been resprayed by a previous owner or have been made by Gitane. Judging by Gitane detail through this site this would have been a special frame if it was indeed originated by them. There's no number tag, but then that's not necessarily an absolute indicator of a team machine at all, just a detail. Tim, I was thinking that maybe it was made by someone else too: Motobecane team frames "looked as if they were touched by different hands". Maybe Gitane went outside too??? This frame has all the hallmarks of a Raleigh Team Pro except for no serial number on the underside of the bottom bracket shell. A Raleigh Team Pro would have the size and the serial number stamped into the bottom bracket starting with SB followed by 4 numbers for that time period (3 or 2 numbers for earlier years). My 1974 Raleigh Team Pro (SB10) Here's a picture of the 1980 standard Raleigh Team Pro frame offerings. Notice the Edco headsets. I believe that the Team Pros were available in that light blue colour too. Chas. (There should be an emoticon for eating words) Last edited by verktyg on Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:21 pm; edited 1 time in total Raleigh Team Pro   Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:55 pm verktyg Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 2814 Location: SF Bay Area Holgar, I didn't look closely at your picture of the underside of the bottom bracket until Wisey brought it up. After looking again I don't think that it's a Raleigh frame as they were sticklers at documenting serial numbers (most of the time). This is a ~1980s Raleigh Team Pro in light blue colour. Wisey, The mark on the BB shell appears to be some kind of cast in logo from whoever made it. Chas. Last edited by verktyg on Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:10 pm; edited 1 time in total   Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:52 pm Wisey Joined: 19 May 2009 Posts: 631 Location: Brisbane, Australia Can someone identify the mark on the underside of the BB shell, at the top of the photo? _________________ Kind Regards, Wisey Delta Dreamin'   Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:49 am Gtane Joined: 14 Sep 2007 Posts: 681 Location: UK Chas, Many thanks for your super info. My Initial thoughts drove me towards the Raleigh look, feel and style, but if this was made for Gitane by Raleigh, for example, then perhaps the SB codes would not appear. Detail such as the bottom bracket and bottle cage mounts (as Wisey noted) might have been specified in order to differentiate from the outsourced provider's frames, to give distinction and individuality to the final branded product. So it could well be that Gitane went outside to third parties in some instances. Wisey, Thanks for your insight and info. I have seen that logo on the bottom bracket but cannot remember where. Ah! It could well be a stock logo or mark, perhaps determining the casting manufacturer. I'm not sure that it's specific to the bike, but I could well be wrong. Suffice to say, that's not the answer you were looking for so I'll keep looking! Holger, Any chance that you could post a few detail shots of the bottom bracket, including the mark that Wisey has mentioned, plus any further indicating marks? Thanks Tim _________________ Everything has a cycle   Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:21 am Wisey Joined: 19 May 2009 Posts: 631 Location: Brisbane, Australia I was actually hoping that someone would recognise the casting stamp and link it to whoever was using those castings...... Re: stars. I wouldn't give up hope of it being a gitane made gitane. As I corrected myself, gitand did use the stars on some models - see the 1978 Olympic. It has stars around the biddon screws. I wonder if this was a 'custom' build (perhaps team) using 753. The machining out of the BB shell indicates they were searching for weight savings. Perhaps they used a non-standars BB shell to begin with as it was lighter than the standard factory BB shell. Or perhaps a different brand was used as it may have been cast with the cut-outs thus saving a whole lot of effort in drilling and filing? Maybe it was intended as a TT bike? (before the aero era) More questions than answers................... as always. _________________ Kind Regards, Wisey Delta Dreamin'   Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:58 am Holger Joined: 27 Feb 2008 Posts: 62 Location: Germany/Stuttgart WOW! I just want to thank you all for your informations. The stamp on the BB Shell is `ROTO` the colour is `Bleu Amstel` like in the 78 catalogue I`ve said my plans are to repaint it, but just because of the rust proof aspect, i dont feel save about it cause it never will be the same again the paint would allways be to `fat`. Apropos to fat, if i have to weigh 68kg to ride it, it would end as an pure showbike cause i have 90kg (to much french red wine) greetings ,Holger   Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:25 am sandranian Site Admin Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 2701 Location: Southern California the lugs might offer some more information. I do not recall Gitane using the "heart" cutout on the lugs. They appear in the Raleigh picture that Chas. posted. Any idea who manufactured those lugs (should be easy to find out)? Any idea if Gitane ever used those? _________________ Stephan Andranian Costa Mesa, CA www.gitaneusa.com   Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:15 am verktyg Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 2814 Location: SF Bay Area sandranian wrote: the lugs might offer some more information. I do not recall Gitane using the "heart" cutout on the lugs. They appear in the Raleigh picture that Chas. posted. Any idea who manufactured those lugs (should be easy to find out)? Any idea if Gitane ever used those? That style of lugs became popular in the late 70s and were made by several lug makers. They're most likely Prugnat S-4 style lugs. They were made of stamped, drawn and welded sheet steel. They came with all of the cutouts already stamped out. Investment cast lugs were just starting to become popular around that time. They cost 2-3 times as much and for a long time were mainly used by custom frame builders. The advantage of the cast lugs is there is very little filing required. Stamped lugs have rough edges that need to be filed to look pretty. Many European production bike frames from those days never got closer than 20 feet to a file! Low end Raleighs were some of the worst! Chas.   Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:32 am verktyg Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 2814 Location: SF Bay Area Holger wrote: Apropos to fat, if i have to weigh 68kg to ride it, it would end as an pure showbike cause i have 90kg (to much french red wine) Holger, Too much red wine, no, too much shpeck und bier! 98 kg (198 Lbs.) probably isn't going to be a problem for easy riding, just don't try a lot of "hammering" in the Alps! As I said, I weigh 102 kg and I have two 753 bikes, but they are both slightly heavier gage 2nd generation Reynolds 753. There are a few paint chips that have some surface rust that can be picked away with a sharp object and then touched op with paint. The rest is just rust stain on the surface. Unless there is severe rust inside the tubes and bottom bracket, repainting isn't going to protect the frame that much unless you plan on keeping it outside. If there is severe rust inside (unlikely) then the whole frame needs some kind of rust treatment. Here's an example of before and after pictures of a frame with some severe surface rust: http://www.ece.ubc.ca/~gillies/raleigh/international/Carlton77.html Chas.   Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:12 pm Holger Joined: 27 Feb 2008 Posts: 62 Location: Germany/Stuttgart thanks again, stunning result with that Carlton bike, evapo rust remover is not available in Germany but i `ve seen it on ebay, so i will try it that way. The lugs maybe all made by `roto`italy , thats how the bb shell is stamped. But i still cant see any connection between `Speck, Bier`and fat Bier is the oldest isotonic sports drink. And Speck you need in these colder days like autumn and winter. Maybe you dont have it in california, but in germany nearly the whole year is autumn. Ask your Gouverner. (I`ll be back) best wishes, Holger   Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:43 pm sandranian Site Admin Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 2701 Location: Southern California Schwarzenegger ist kein Deutscher. Is that correct grammar? _________________ Stephan Andranian Costa Mesa, CA www.gitaneusa.com Gitane 753 Frame, need help!     gitaneusa.com Forum Index » Vintage Gitane You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum All times are GMT - 8 Hours   Page 1 of 4   Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First  Select a forum Gitane USA----------------Vintage GitaneGitane RacingModern GitanePro Racing - Classics/Giro/Tour....Owner Gallery   Powered by phpBB © 2001-2004 phpBB Group Designed for Trushkin.net | Themes Database.