gitaneusa.com Forum Index » Vintage Gitane » Super Corsa? Or Tour de France? Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next    View previous topic :: View next topic  Super Corsa? Or Tour de France?   Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:22 am Rixtir Joined: 22 Sep 2008 Posts: 28 Location: Portland, OR eBay Gitane advertised as a Super Corsa, but I see a Tour de France. What say the experts? TdF   Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:21 am verktyg Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 2814 Location: SF Bay Area The frame is in really nice condition. It's probably a 1972 because it has the brake cable stop bridge on the seat stays, long point Prugnat lugs and a newer Nervex DuBois fork crown. I sent the seller a message informing them that their frame is really a Tour de France (as per the down tube decals). Why? Because it has a Stronglight P3 headset! Super Corsa bikes came with Campy headsets and 10mm to 12mm longer steering tubes. The stack height - the total height of all of the headset parts when installed is 33mm for the P3 and 41mm for the Campy headset. Where this becomes a problem is when you need to replace the headset. Metric headsets with a short stack height are pretty scarce and becoming very expensive. Stronglight P3 headsets are going for $50-$100 on eBay and the nice ones are going to Japanese collectors for more. Specialized, Shimano and Tange made a few metric headsets with short stack heights. Campy Nuovo Record Track (Pista) and Pre 1985 Gran Sport headsets have a 33mm stack height too but metric ones are hard to find. You can have the fork crown and head tube faced off to pick up a few millimeters but... There is an inexpensive fix though. Tange makes some headsets with a 27mm fork crown race that sell for $12-$25. The crown race and the bottom head tube cup are all that usually need to be replaced. Get one of these Tange 1" headsets and only use the bottom parts (or get one with a 24.6mm crown race and have the crown refaced). As far as the Campy dropouts are concerned, at the height of the US Bike Boom in 1972-73 a few TdFs came with Campy rear dropouts instead of the spec'd out Simplex ones. There were even some that came through with Simplex rear dropouts without integral derailleur hangers. Standard TdF Simplex dropout Old style Simplex dropout without derailleur hanger Campy 1010 dropouts TdFs sometimes had Huret or even Campy fork ends. Probably due to delivery problems with Simplex. Simplex fork ends Huret fork ends And... as the description in the Models section of this web site mentions, Gitane put the TdF fork decals on different models. I've seen Interclubs and Super Corsas with the TdF decals plus Interclubs and TdFs with the Super Corsa decals! Clear as mud eh? Tour de France fork decal with the "102" intact Super Corsa fork decal Interclub fork decal _________________ Chas. SF Bay Area, CA USA ============== 1984 Criterium 1969 TdF 1971 TdF 1974 TdF 1984 TdF x 2 Bikes 1970 SC 1971 SC 1972 SC 1984 SC 1984 Team Pro 1985 Professional 1990s Team Replica   Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:47 am sandranian Site Admin Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 2701 Location: Southern California I guess I agree with Chas., even though the seller is relying on my own writing for his description. I would say that it is both...in a way...really the "Super Tour de France" because of the dropouts. But Chas. is "technically" correct. _________________ Stephan Andranian Costa Mesa, CA www.gitaneusa.com   Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:18 pm greyhundguy Joined: 09 Apr 2008 Posts: 678 Location: South-Central VIRGINIA I WILL agree with Chas. on this one. It has absolutely no indications of being a Super Corsa other than having Campy drop outs. TdF's WERE known to have them. See this article: http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemId=1932&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 And, sellers statement: "...Also, head tubes, which in catalogs were shown to be completely silver on the SC, often were not (in fact, an example has never been seen)..." is not true. There has been at least one or more shown on this site in the past and one of those was resold on eBay. A nice frame set if it can be had for $200-$250. Jay _________________ Dance like nobody is watching.   Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:30 pm sandranian Site Admin Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 2701 Location: Southern California The statement that you quote is something that I wrote and appears on this site. At the time, I had not seen one...but have since. So the information is outdated. And as far as whether it is a Tour de France or super Corsa is concerned...I stand by my prior comment! _________________ Stephan Andranian Costa Mesa, CA www.gitaneusa.com   Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:38 pm sandranian Site Admin Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 2701 Location: Southern California Just one other thing that has been bothering me. The MAJOR "structural" (read: material) difference between a Super Corsa ("SC") and a Tour de France ("TdF") are the dropouts (Campagnolo vs. Simplex, respectively). Just because a steerer tube is trimmed a bit shorter and different stickers are applied does not appear to me to be a material difference in the bikes. If that were the case, if someone bought a SC and trimmed the steerer because he favored Stronglight headsets (insane? sure...but possible!), would his frameset then be a TdF? What if he removed the SC decals from the fork and down tube? It would still be a SC in my book. The only thing that makes it an SC and not a TdF are the Campagnolo dropouts, not the decals or the length of the steerer tube. If I put TdF decals on an Interclub, is it then a TdF? What if "Pierre" in Machecoul had too much wine one morning and he put the TdF decals on the Interclub? Would it then be a TdF? I don't know if I buy into the argument that a TdF is one because the decal says it is. I believe that this bike is a bastardized SC, but a Super Corsa nonetheless. OK...tell me how I am wrong. Last edited by sandranian on Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:45 pm; edited 1 time in total _________________ Stephan Andranian Costa Mesa, CA www.gitaneusa.com   Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:43 pm greyhundguy Joined: 09 Apr 2008 Posts: 678 Location: South-Central VIRGINIA Stephan, This might help to clarify. http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemId=22837 It would seem that Gitane chose to badge a SC frame set as a TdF with all of its related components. It was not a matter of too much wine. It was consciously shipped out the door as a TdF to land on our shores. "Best available" or give them what they want. Jay _________________ Dance like nobody is watching.   Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:47 pm sandranian Site Admin Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 2701 Location: Southern California I have seen that before, which is what I based my initial reaction on. My last post put forth a new theory, ignoring the marketing facts surrounding the bikes...and what we should call it. Chas....and you...agreed that the bike in question is a TdF. I am saying that it is correctly a SC. The stickers, trimming and parts included do not alter the fact that the frame is a SC. That's my theory. _________________ Stephan Andranian Costa Mesa, CA www.gitaneusa.com IT IS A TOUR DE FRANCE FRAME PERIOD!!!!   Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:59 pm verktyg Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 2814 Location: SF Bay Area sandranian wrote: I have seen that before, which is what I based my initial reaction on. My last post put forth a new theory, ignoring the marketing facts surrounding the bikes...and what we should call it. Chas....and you...agreed that the bike in question is a TdF. I am saying that it is correctly a SC. The stickers, trimming and parts included do not alter the fact that the frame is a SC. That's my theory. au contraire Je suis en désaccord M. avocat (M. conseiller) Le noir est noir et blanc est blanc; il n'y a aucun secteur gris Schwarzes ist schwarzes. Weiß ist weiß; es gibt keinen grauen Bereich! Il nero è in bianco e nero è bianco. Non ci è zona grigia The seller, based on somewhat incorrect information from this web site is misrepresenting the frame as a Super Corsa when regardless of the dropouts it's a Tour de France model!!! The defining factor is the headset: Stronglight P3 (TdF) or Campagnolo Nuovo Record (SC). SCs have a steering tube that is 8mm to 12mm longer to fit Campagnolo headsets. The TdF steerer is 8-12mm SHORTER to fit the Stronglight P3 headset! Super Corsas were Campagnolo equipped bikes while the Tour de France had almost all French components. Since a Campagnolo NR headset will not fit this frame therefore it is a Tour de France frame! End of argument! There were only major 2 component variances on the Tour de France models between the late 60s and mid 1974: in the early 70s Campy Nuovo Tipo high flange hubs were substituted for Normandy Luxe Competition models and later Sugino Mighty Competition cranks replaced the Stronglight model 93 cranks. Both of those were probably due to supply problems. Peugeot was more than likely gobbling up those parts for their popular PX-10 bikes! If I bought this frame and discovered the discrepancy I'd bounce it back to the seller or negotiate a decent partial refund! You guys are starting to sound like the Raleigh freaks who fret over the smallest differences in details. These were imprecisely manufactured bicycles not Swiss watch movements! The people who built them 35 to 40 years ago would be amazed that these bikes are still in use much less in demand! I've said this before but I'll say it again, prior to the US Bike Boom that started around 1970 and lasted until mid 1974, most of the European bicycle and component manufacturers where using technology and equipment that predated WWII! Some of the machinery was even built before WWI! When the Boom took off European component manufacturers where hard strapped to keep up with the demand from bike makers. They suddenly found their business had increased 10 fold! Consequently bike makers used what ever they could get to put together bikes and push them out the door to meet the demand! Of course there is always the possibility that on occasion Gitane grabbed some Super Corsa frames and threw TdF forks and components on them. But the possibility that they ran out of the proper Simplex dropouts and substituted Campy dropouts is just as likely! The bottom line is that when this frame was imported into the US, my guess is that the box and paperwork said Tour de France so that's what it is! One other thing to consider, many TdF owners continually upgraded their bikes. These were folks who didn't have a lot of money to afford one of those hot Italian numbers! The TdF was inexpensive and had a nice riding, handling frame that was worth upgrading, from just changing the derailleurs to full Campy (except for the headset) components. That's why you don't see many all original TdFs (unless they were garage or cellar queens). Also, except for Jay who lives in the Machecoul area of Virgina down the road from where the importer Mel Pinto was located, there just weren't that many Super Corsas in the US. Quite a few of those were bought cheap by bike shops and parted out for the scarce Campy gruppos (to go on those hot Italian frames) _________________ Chas. SF Bay Area, CA USA ============== 1984 Criterium 1969 TdF 1971 TdF 1974 TdF 1984 TdF x 2 Bikes 1970 SC 1971 SC 1972 SC 1984 SC 1984 Team Pro 1985 Professional 1990s Team Replica Mylar Foil Head Tubes   Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:12 pm verktyg Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 2814 Location: SF Bay Area greyhundguy wrote: "...Also, head tubes, which in catalogs were shown to be completely silver on the SC, often were not (in fact, an example has never been seen)..." is not true. There has been at least one or more shown on this site in the past and one of those was resold on eBay. Jay Check out the silver foil head tube on this Super Corsa from the 1970 Gitane catalog: I suspect that Gitane discontinued the used of this stuff on the head tubes because it was too much of a hassle and too time consuming to get it on straight! For a brief period in the US in the mid 60s when Mylar foil first became commercially available it was stuck on everything. Like many things made of plastic it soon took on an appearance of cheapness. The French love affair with Mylar foil lasted much longer. Oh and BTW Stephan, the enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend! _________________ Chas. SF Bay Area, CA USA ============== 1984 Criterium 1969 TdF 1971 TdF 1974 TdF 1984 TdF x 2 Bikes 1970 SC 1971 SC 1972 SC 1984 SC 1984 Team Pro 1985 Professional 1990s Team Replica Re: IT IS A TOUR DE FRANCE FRAME PERIOD!!!!   Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:33 am greyhundguy Joined: 09 Apr 2008 Posts: 678 Location: South-Central VIRGINIA verktyg wrote: . The defining factor is the headset: Stronglight P3 (TdF) or Campagnolo Nuovo Record (SC). Since a Campagnolo NR headset will not fit this frame therefore it is a Tour de France frame! End of argument! The bottom line is that when this frame was imported into the US, my guess is that the box and paperwork said Tour de France so that's what it is! I agree with Chas.. It had gender reassignment at the Factory. This can never be restored as a true SC unless one of two things are done. 1.) replace the steer tube so a Campy head set will fit, or 2.) be lucky enough to find the correct replacement fork from Velo Classique. I would be happy to own this bike the way it is, a TdF, because acquiring the proper period Campy parts for a SC would cost a substantial amount of money. Jay _________________ Dance like nobody is watching.   Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:41 pm Rixtir Joined: 22 Sep 2008 Posts: 28 Location: Portland, OR Thanks for all the great replies and thoughtful debate! When I saw this frameset, with its TdF stickers and Campagnolo dropouts, I knew it wouldn't just be a simple matter of looking at the stickers or the dropouts. I realized that it would take more analysis than that, but I certainly don't have the expertise to figure it out. And it looks like even the experts disagree! Re: IT IS A TOUR DE FRANCE FRAME PERIOD!!!!   Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:08 pm verktyg Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 2814 Location: SF Bay Area greyhundguy wrote: verktyg wrote: . The defining factor is the headset: Stronglight P3 (TdF) or Campagnolo Nuovo Record (SC). Since a Campagnolo NR headset will not fit this frame therefore it is a Tour de France frame! End of argument! The bottom line is that when this frame was imported into the US, my guess is that the box and paperwork said Tour de France so that's what it is! I agree with Chas.. It had gender reassignment at the Factory. This can never be restored as a true SC unless one of two things are done. 1.) replace the steer tube so a Campy head set will fit, or 2.) be lucky enough to find the correct replacement fork from Velo Classique. I would be happy to own this bike the way it is, a TdF, because acquiring the proper period Campy parts for a SC would cost a substantial amount of money. Jay Thank you for backing me up against the tyrant Stephan Agustus! Being right is not always best! See you tomorrow morning on the sands of the Coliseum... _________________ Chas. SF Bay Area, CA USA ============== 1984 Criterium 1969 TdF 1971 TdF 1974 TdF 1984 TdF x 2 Bikes 1970 SC 1971 SC 1972 SC 1984 SC 1984 Team Pro 1985 Professional 1990s Team Replica   Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:34 pm smilingroadrunner Joined: 10 Aug 2007 Posts: 278 Location: Salina, Ks. Gawd I love this place !!!! You fellows are so much fun. Thanks for the discussion and the respectful banter. And from my point of view (although the campagnolo brakes were a option for additional $$$$ at purchase - order time) the campy gruppo on the S.C. specs and the longer steering tube necessary for the campy headset differentiates the frames from the TdeF frame. A small but "Definitive" (no pun intended to the new generation of composite frames) feature. I Like Steel !!!! __________________ C.A. Salina, Ks. 1970 TdeF 1971 Interclub 1972 TdeF 1972 Interclub 1972-73 S.C. (in the wings) 1973 TdeF 1986 Performance 1987 Victoire   Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:16 am STW Joined: 12 Sep 2007 Posts: 20 Great discussion. It's ontological Another way of making Chas's point is to say what IS a Super Corsa and what IS a TdeF. In the absence of truly definitive frame components to distinguish between the two (the predates the engraved seat stay caps on later SC, right?), the only real distinction between the two models is campagnolo components vs. the French mix. I think this is even more definitive than the original box labels. For example, I'm guessing if Chas, back in the 70s, had pulled an all NR bike out of a box marked TdeF, he would have thought "Oh, they put an SC in a TdeF box," instead of "Oh, I guess they're putting all NR on TdeFs now." Just like we do with the rear drops. If we saw this bike with it's original components and they were all Huret and Stronglight with those Campagnolo drops, we'd say "Oh they ran out of Simplex and Huret drops" not "Oh they're putting Huret ders on SCs now." So drops are not definitive. Neither are transfers. Not paint. Only the components, and this bike has the Stronglight headset. Can we imagine that they ran out of NR headsets and put this P3 on an SC? That seems way more unlikely than that they put the French components on a bike with Campagnolo drops to make it a TdeF. Since that P3 headset is almost never installed on a bike it wasn't original on, it seems like the only definitive aspect of this frame. Chas adds the extra information that because of stack height the P3 is even more definitive because it almost has to be original to the frame. So it's a TdeF. No question. What I added here is superfluous but it was too good a thread not to weigh in. Super Corsa? 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