gitaneusa.com Forum Index » Vintage Gitane » teampro/replica Goto page 1, 2  Next    View previous topic :: View next topic  teampro/replica   Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 7:12 am bowser Joined: 17 Jul 2007 Posts: 94 Location: lancashire uk hi all i have recently become the proud owner of a team pro gitane race frame. i was wondering if anyone could help in dating it the frame is built from 531 reynolds tubing the reynolds decal is missing from the frame but the fork decal is still intact not sure which tubing is used maybe 531c? thers is a braze on the set tube for a front mech simplex lj of which i am pursuing on e bay! the drop outs are simplex one of which has had a proffesional repair done and has obviously broke at some time as described in the text on the web site! there is a braze on for a racing number on top tube which also has concealed brake routing (on the top). also twin bottle braze ons . i will post some pics as soon as possible looking at the catalouges it looks like a 1987 model but am unsure just looking for ideas of components as campag c record is listed for this year . but with the ft mech boss it would specify simplex any ideas appreciated thanks bowser. by the way the decals are as 1987 as the bike fignon is riding on the web site cheers   Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 9:04 am sandranian Site Admin Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 2701 Location: Southern California Welcome to the site. As soon as the pictures are posted, more can be said about the frameset. From the sounds of it, the frame appears to be a 1983 model, which would make it Columbus, not Reynolds tubing. The 1987 frameset had internally routed rear brake cables, but they entered and exited from the lower half of the top tube. In addition, the 1987 TP used Campagnolo dropouts and a standard clamp-on front derailleur. The 1983 TP did have a braze-on for the front derailleur. The 1984 model did not. Both 1983 & 1984's used Columbus SL tubing with Simplex dropouts. It may be that the fork is a replacement... _________________ Stephan Andranian Costa Mesa, CA www.gitaneusa.com   Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 10:20 am bowser Joined: 17 Jul 2007 Posts: 94 Location: lancashire uk hi sandranian thanks for your input is columbus sl tubing spiralled in the tubing? the paint looks original so as you say the forks could have been an addition . i would imagine the frame has been raced at somtime hence the damage although there is no damage on the frame itself or signs of a frontal impact but you never know it looks very much like the picture of the team pro in the 84 catalouge which as you say is built with columbus sl the frame is away at a friends at moment being painted i wanted to keep the original decals etc so he is just "blowing in " the poor bits with a colour match there is aframe no stamped into bottom bracket which is a cinelli cast by the way cheers bowser   Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 10:26 am sandranian Site Admin Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 2701 Location: Southern California The Cinelli BB shells were used in 1983 and 1984. Again, because of the front derailleur hanger, it appears to be a 1983. The picture used in the 1984 catalogue is a 1983. In 1984, they didn't sell the Gitane Team Pro with that configuration or those components...at least that is the general consensus on this site. Your BB shell may include a date code in the stamp. For a brief time (around 1984), Gitane would stamp in the year of manufacture with the other serial numbers. Columbus SL was not "spiral" or "rifled". It is double-butted seamless tubing, very similar to Reynolds 531. _________________ Stephan Andranian Costa Mesa, CA www.gitaneusa.com   Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 11:35 am bowser Joined: 17 Jul 2007 Posts: 94 Location: lancashire uk hi thanks again will check out the serial no tomorrow and post pics interesting i could have a columbus decal on seat tube and reynolds fork decal ! real confusion lol if this is the case i am right to assume i will be looking for simplex/spidel components thanks bowser Columbus or Reynolds Fork?   Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 12:01 am verktyg Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 2814 Location: SF Bay Area Someone could have put Reynolds decals on the forks... It's been done before! Carefully look at the steering tube on the fork. Near the bottom of the tube you should see either Reynolds or the Columbus "white Dove" in an oval stamped into the metal. Also, look inside the bottom of the steerer. Columbus tubes are riffled for about 3" up. You may have to clean the dirt out to see it but there are narrow twisted ridges in Columbus steerers. Is there any chrome on the rear triangle? There is a possibility that it's a pieced together frame with a Reynolds fork. If so, why was the fork changed? The first thing that I would do is feel for any ripples under the top and down tube at the head tube. If you find any then the bike was probably in a crash. If that's the case then you may want to have someone who knows what they are doing, check the alignment. A slightly bent downward and misaligned head tube will make for a squirrelly handling bike! On they other hand these may have been an unmatched replacement frame and fork. Stick the fork in the head tube and measure how much of the steerer sticks out of the top of the head tube. Ideally it should be about 40mm ± 1mm. If it's longer or shorter then you have to get creative with the headset. Report back what you find and I'll tell what you need to do. ...and post some pictures, we can only guess so much! Chas. resident retro grouch! _________________ Chas. SF Bay Area, CA USA ============== 1984 Criterium 1969 TdF 1971 TdF 1974 TdF 1984 TdF x 2 Bikes 1970 SC 1971 SC 1972 SC 1984 SC 1984 Team Pro 1985 Professional 1990s Team Replica   Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 9:28 am bowser Joined: 17 Jul 2007 Posts: 94 Location: lancashire uk ok heres some pics paint job not completed yet. also frame no on bottom bracket reads 15406 60 then underneath 11 83 i would say 1983 then no crash damage on tubing you can see repair on rear dropout near gear hanger thanks guys bowser [/img] havent dropped the forks yet will check out that steering tube for stamp thanks verktyg   Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 9:49 am sandranian Site Admin Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 2701 Location: Southern California Thanks for the pics. Definitely a 1983. the forks are also definitely a Gitane, judging from the finish on the inside fork tips (squared off and only filed on the outside). Are the front dropouts Simplex or Campagnolo? _________________ Stephan Andranian Costa Mesa, CA www.gitaneusa.com   Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:34 am bowser Joined: 17 Jul 2007 Posts: 94 Location: lancashire uk hi i never checked front dropouuts! will have a look tomorrow. you think frame is columbus sl? that would be no bad thing. the fork decal looks original but you never know will drop forks out and check on steerer tube also couple more pics not best quality sorry   Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:40 am sandranian Site Admin Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 2701 Location: Southern California Honestly, I think the frame is Columbus (SL) and the forks are too. I think that someone misbadged the forks with the Reynolds decal. The crown looks to be more like the Columbus forks from 1984. I think you will find that the dropouts are Simplex. Regarding the badging, I have a 1987 "Inter" that was badged with a Reynolds 531P decal direct from the factory. However, that model used Reynolds 531c. I think that "pierre" at the factory applied the wrong decal, and that the bike is actually made from 531c. But it was an "original" decal. Here is a picture of it (the Gitane decals are obviously not original, but the tubing decals are): http://www.gitaneusa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=560 _________________ Stephan Andranian Costa Mesa, CA www.gitaneusa.com   Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:49 am bowser Joined: 17 Jul 2007 Posts: 94 Location: lancashire uk excellent thanks if it is indeed sl thats a bonus as it was advertised as 531 double butted . i have a celo europa in columbus slx which rides like a dream hopefully i can find some simplex components for a period re build i have a pair of gp4 sprints on campag record hubs do you think these would be suitable? hubs are early eighties im sure with a 7 speed straight through block cheers bowser Columbus vs. Reynolds plus more...   Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 9:07 pm verktyg Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 2814 Location: SF Bay Area bowser wrote: excellent thanks if it is indeed sl thats a bonus as it was advertised as 531 double butted . i have a celo europa in columbus slx which rides like a dream Well now hold on a little here! Don't fall victim to urban bike myths perpetrated by wanna be raceurs and bike shop boys! Many more Italian builders have used Reynolds tubing than British builders who used Columbus tubes. You'll never see a tubing decal on most classic Masi bikes. Why? Because a lot of them including those made in the US were made of Reynolds 531 tubing! Others were made of a mix of brands of tubes. To digress, many bikies confuse RIDE with HANDLING. The two concepts are somewhat mutually exclusive. RIDE involves how a bike frame absorbs or transmits road vibrations and shock to the rider. There are a lot of variables in this equation: frame size, rider weight, frame geometry (wheelbase, chain stay length, fork rake, top tube length, head and seat tube angles plus tubing size and wall thickness) even wheel design, tire type, size and pressure. The classic stage race road bike geometry of the early 70s is a good starting point. Gitanes from that era were famous for their great ride! They had ~72° parallel seat and head tube angles (depending on frame size), ~420cm chainstays and ~45mm to 50mm fork rake. These bikes were designed for riding all day on the rough roads that were raced on in Europe in the early to mid 70s. They were also fairly stable handling (see handling below) so that in the peloton you could scratch you personal areas, eat, drink and so on, hands off (handling below). A "short coupled" frame with a short wheelbase, short chainstays and fork rake plus steep tube angles is going to provide a stiffer ride that will transmit more road shock and vibration to the rider. This is frequently misinterpreted as being "faster". Same thing with stiff wheels with small cross section tires pumped to high pressures. The rider feels more road shock than on a soft, smooth riding bike so the assumption is that stiff is faster and smooth is slower! HANDLING involves steering, maneuverability, stability, cornering, ascending or descending. These factors are mostly controlled by the frame's geometry. A short coupled highly maneuverable frame with "twitchy" steering can be fun for short rides but fatiguing because of the lower stability on a long ride. Trying to keep a bike going straight all day long can wear you out. The perfect bike for a rider is one that "planes". That is it does what you want it to do without consciously thinking about steering the bike. You go into and out of a corner without having to make any adjustments. You point it and it just goes! COLUMBUS vs. REYNOLDS Most Reynolds 531 production bikes from the late 60s to the early 80s used 7/10 wall thickness main tubes. That meant the butted ends were 1.0mm wall thickness and the thinner mid-sections were 0.7mm thick. Only the top and down tubes were "double butted" on most "butted" tubing frames. The seat tube was single butted with the thicker end going into the bottom bracket. From the 1950s until the early 80s Columbus produced 2 primary sets of tubing for road bikes: SP (heavier) and SL (lighter). Well surprise, surprise, surprise... Columbus SP the heavier version tubing was just about the same wall thickness and weight as Reynolds 531 7/10! The misconception generally was that Reynolds 531 was lighter! They were about the same. By comparison, the "gas pipe" tubing on entry level bikes had 1.5mm to 2+mm wall thickness tubes! Columbus SL tubing used 6/9 main tubes. The butted ends were 0.9mm thick and the mid-section 0.6mm thick. Until the mid 70s most Columbus frame production bikes were made with the heavier SP tubes. When all of the flashy hot Italian frames started hitting the US market in the mid 70s many were being made of Columbus SL tubing. During the same period Reynolds offered 4 or 5 different wall thickness tube sets from 5/7 to 9/1.2! These figures were rarely published. One of the reasons production bike frames were made with the heavier gage tubes was that less skilled workers could be used to braze the frames. There was a less of a chance of damaging these thicker tubes from overheating. Also, thinner walled tubing was easier to dent during handling in the factory. Another thing, pro racers had only 1 or 2 bikes to last them for a season or more so many pro bikes were made of the heavier tubing to withstand crashes and rough handling by the team crews. Many hot Italian road frames from the mid 70s on used geometry that had previously been only found on track bikes! Many of the short coupled Italian frames were light and stiff but had very twitchy handling and a harsh ride! During much of the 80s Gitane truly GOT IT RIGHT in both HANDLING and RIDE on their performance model bikes. They were light weight, smooth riding with the right blend of responsiveness and stability. They were made of Super Vitus, Columbus SL or Reynolds 531C tubing which all had about the same wall thickness. Thinner tubing makes a lighter frame but more importantly can provide a "supple" ride that flexes in the right way to absorb road shocks. One caveat, a heavier rider on on larger size frame made of thin wall tubing could experience undesirable lateral flex in the frame. I have a Genuine US $200 bill for anyone who can tell the difference in ride between the different brands tubing on one of these frames in the same size and with the same components! EDITED June, 2013: My preference would be Reynolds 531P (previously called Reynolds 531 SL or Super Light) which had thinner wall tubes than the others, then Super Vitus, Reynolds 531C with Columbus last. They are all good brands. Same with premium tubing from Tange, Ishiwata, Mansmann and Falck (plus other lesser known makers). I've acquired a number of bikes made with Reynolds 753 and Super Vitus 980 since I posted this message in 2010. I now prefer Super Vitus 980 over the others because of the smooth, supple ride these frame provide due to the thin walled tubing (55cm -56cm sized frames with almost most identical geometry). In over 35 years of playing with classic bikes, I've seen far more cracked or broken frame tubes made of Columbus than those made for Reynolds, so when I hear "yippie Columbus"... bowser wrote: hopefully i can find some simplex components for a period re build During that time, Simplex was known for derailleurs and shift levers. bowser wrote: i have a pair of gp4 sprints on campag record hubs do you think these would be suitable? hubs are early eighties im sure with a 7 speed straight through block cheers bowser The French built bikes to ride, not look at! Unless you are wanting to build a show bike, any top quality period correct components that fit will work great! Campy record hubs and Mavic rims would be perfect. Disregard what I said about measuring the steering tube as you already have a very good Specialized alloy headset. Campy Nuovo Record, Super Record or Victory cranks would be fine too. You could also go with Stronglight/Spidel cranks. Campy, Mafac/Spidel or Modolo side pull brakes would all be good. When you assemble this bike and ride it I think that you will see what I'm talking about. Last edited by verktyg on Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:07 pm; edited 2 times in total _________________ Chas. SF Bay Area, CA USA ============== 1984 Criterium 1969 TdF 1971 TdF 1974 TdF 1984 TdF x 2 Bikes 1970 SC 1971 SC 1972 SC 1984 SC 1984 Team Pro 1985 Professional 1990s Team Replica   Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 1:10 pm bowser Joined: 17 Jul 2007 Posts: 94 Location: lancashire uk hi chas thanks for the info very interesting breakdown of various tubing. i didnt mean to lessen the qualitys of reynolds tubing at all i have a 80s raleigh road ace built with 531c which is an excellent ride . i suppose its down to personal tastes i do find the celo more comfortable but as you say thats down to the geometery. etc. i know some race machines especially early bianchi where not exactly light by todays standards either going back to the gitane i cant find any stamping on the fork dropouts but they are not campag the forks are chrome by the way or should i say have been! im drawn towards the opinion they have been replaced at some stage and possibly badged incorrectly anyway the search is on for some suitable adornments ive managed to find a simplex bossed ft mech and some simplex retro friction levers so thats a start . i have a campag seatpost right size so heres hoping thanks bowser   Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 1:14 pm sandranian Site Admin Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 2701 Location: Southern California If they don't say Campagnolo, then they are likely Simplex. I will have to check on my 1984 to see if they actually say "Simplex" on the front dropouts (I don't think they do). I would imagine that yours is incorrectly badged. _________________ Stephan Andranian Costa Mesa, CA www.gitaneusa.com   Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 9:53 pm verktyg Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 2814 Location: SF Bay Area bowser wrote: hi chas thanks for the info very interesting breakdown of various tubing. i didnt mean to lessen the qualitys of reynolds tubing at all i have a 80s raleigh road ace built with 531c which is an excellent ride . i suppose its down to personal tastes i do find the celo more comfortable but as you say thats down to the geometery. etc. i know some race machines especially early bianchi where not exactly light by todays standards either. bowser Please don't take it personally, I just wanted to dispel some long time cycling myths. Here's what the riffling in the Columbus steerers looks like, no riffling no Columbus! There should be 5 upraised twisted lands inside the bottom of the steering tube. Sometimes you have to clean out the old grease and dirt to see them. There was very little mechanical difference in the alloy steels used in the top quality tubes from the major producers from the 1950s up into the early 80s. For example Reynolds 753 was 531 with a special heat treatment that increased the strength by over 60% and allowed the use of very thin wall tubes. By the mid 80s, Columbus and others started playing around with different alloy steels to produce lighter, stronger tube sets. Amateur raceurs and wannabes were some of the most fickle cyclists around back in the 70s and 80s. No brains, no pains! If so and so won such and such race with some new unproven technology then they all HAD to have whatever that was. They must have thought the mojo would rub off on them and never got it through their heads that it was the motor not the machine! On the other side of the coin, if they heard a rumor that something failed then everything related to the item was forever condemned! Unless of course it was made in Italy then it was touched by the hand of the deity! Back in the late 70s a rumor got started that several hot shot US amateurs had chainstays fail on some bikes made of Super Vitus tubing. These supposedly happened in some prestige races like the Red Zinger Classic! We were importing Andre Bertin bikes at the time and we specified frames made of Super Vitus 971 because it had the same properties as Columbus SL tubing. We had a hard time dispelling that myth! The truth be known, the bike or bikes that failed (if they ever did fail) were made by a US frame builder or builders. Who knows how they built them and how much they overheated the tubes? It was most likely Columbus SL chainstays that failed rather than Super Vitus! A famous US frame builder whose last name begins with "E" built a lot of frames out of Super Vitus tubing. It was one of his favorite brands because the tubes were so consistent! His bikes never had tubing stickers. Many were used in track and cyclocross competition. Frame failure was pretty unheard on his bikes. The bottom line is if you like a bike and it's fun and comfortable to ride, that's all that counts! _________________ Chas. SF Bay Area, CA USA ============== 1984 Criterium 1969 TdF 1971 TdF 1974 TdF 1984 TdF x 2 Bikes 1970 SC 1971 SC 1972 SC 1984 SC 1984 Team Pro 1985 Professional 1990s Team Replica teampro/replica     gitaneusa.com Forum Index » Vintage Gitane You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum All times are GMT - 8 Hours   Page 1 of 2   Goto page 1, 2  Next All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First  Select a forum Gitane USA----------------Vintage GitaneGitane RacingModern GitanePro Racing - Classics/Giro/Tour....Owner Gallery   Powered by phpBB © 2001-2004 phpBB Group Designed for Trushkin.net | Themes Database.