gitaneusa.com :: View topic - Possibly French

velomateo

This is a recent find, and I have been having hard time putting a name on it. Many others have said French, so I thought I would give you guys a crack at it.
26.4 seat tube
Campagnolo drop-outs, fr. and rr.
Internal fork crown
Over the BB cable routing
Seat tube ctc 54.5 - Top tube ctc 57.5
Bocama long lugs
Braze on f/d
Two bottle mounts
Pump peg
Nutted brakes
No s/n numbers
Light - about 21.5 lb.s as pictured.
Did Gitane do custom orders?

sandranian · Site Admin

Appear to be Campagnolo dropouts. Someone powdercoated that frameset, which removes a lot of the detail.

I don't think that is a Gitane though. the pump peg, seatpost binder, seat stay caps, rear derailleur cable stop, and cable guides don't appear to make that a Gitane.

velomateo

Thanks for the input. I have searched thousands of photos looking for a match. Gitane and LeJeune have been the closest in appearence...in French builders. Do you know of any French companies that did custom orders? Geometry doesn't seem to be stock.

verktyg · Last edited by verktyg on Wed May 19, 2010 5:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

Most towns in France of any size had at least one "constructeur" bike shop that custom built frames. After building the frame they assembled the bike to meet their customer's requirements.

velomateo

Drop-outs are Campagnolo, not Huret. Bottom bracket and headset are English BTW.

sandranian · Site Admin

Check the forks as well, near the dropouts. Gitane usually didn't file the inside fork ends where they meet the dropouts. Here is an example:

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gx9dQpS

velomateo

No, this frame isn't like that. Thanks for your help.

verktyg

"Drop-outs are Campagnolo, not Huret. Bottom bracket and headset are English BTW."

Sorry for the mixup, I was commenting on several mystery frames today.

What part of the world did you find the bike?

I'm thinking custom built because of the seat stay caps. That style is time consuming to produce.

The metric tubing would tend to rule out a British bike from that era unless it were Reynolds 753 tubing which is not too likely.

In the mid 1970s there were some French metric tubesets sold in the US along with metric Bocama lugs. Some of the budding US framebuilders used the stuff because it was super cheap. I built some frames with that combination myself.

The British threads, Campy 1010B dropouts plus 2 water bottle cage mounts place it in the late 70s or early 80s, especially if it's a French built bike.

Maybe one of the Canadian builders like Marinoni?

velomateo

I'm in Southern California. I was thinking of a Canadian origin as well, but the Marinoni's I have looked at aren't matching up. I think this bike has been modified or added to...second water bottle mount, pump peg and even the shifter mounts. There is a nub under the down tube for the clamp-on style shifters, so all that stuff could have been added before the repaint.

verktyg

I'm still thinking that it's a custom built frame or one that's had the rear triangle replaced. For example, there is no chainstay bridge at the bottom bracket.

The way that the tubes are finished at the dropouts is another indicator that someone took the time to hand file those places. You don't see that on production bikes from that time period very often

velomateo

Oh, I agree it's custom. I think the seat tube vs. top tube measurements indicate that. I just wonder if it's from one of the larger manufacturers. As far as the rear bridge goes - there may have been one. I can feel a small depression in that area. The bike came to me with 28c tires, I think the previous owner set it up for commuter duty and intended to run larger tires and had the bridge removed. Would you agree that it's probably Reynolds 531 tubing?
I did find a picture of an old Lapierre today that was slightly older and had a flat crown fork, but it could have evolved in to what I have. Any knowledge of the brand?

verktyg

It's very difficult if not impossible to determine the brand of tubing used on a fully painted bike. Even more so on one that may have been a custom build or a repair.

The big 3 high quality European tubing producers, Reynolds, Columbus and Ateliers de la Rive - Durifort, Vitus and Super Vitus all lightly embossed their name or logo in 1 end of every tube. Frequently these identifying marks were barely visible.

With the paint removed you can sometimes find traces of these marks, usually in the 3 main tubes. The marks in the forks and rear stays are usually trimmed off during frame construction.

The size, shape and sometimes bend in the fork blades can be used for an educated guess. Same thing with the shape of the wheel clearance indentations in the chainstays.

I did some repairs before venturing into full fledged frame building. I modified the rear triangle and put in vertical dropouts on a frame that I had someone custom build for me. They made the chainstays too short.

I think that many other start up frame builders went that route too.

The more information I hear about your frame the more that I think that maybe it was an existing frame that someone repaired and or modified.

Does it fit you well? Do you like the ride and handling?

I'm in the midst myself of trying to find the pedigree of a mid 80s team bike that's been repainted with 1990s colors and decals (not a Gitane). Fortunately I bought it to ride and it does that very well.

You may never find it's true birth mother! Just call it a "Batard" and enjoy.

velomateo

Okay, I need to back track a little. Sandranian asked earlier if the frame had the Gitane style fork. I said no from memory. I was wrong, it does have the style that he gave a reference picture of...with the inner drop-out squared off. The rear is done in the same fashion.
I pulled the fork off today and was searching for a tubing manufacturers mark of some kind. No luck there, but I was happy to see the drop-out finishing I mentioned.
So did Gitane normally put serial numbers on their frames?
What model would have used the Bocama long point lugs and the internal fork crown and Campagnolo drop-outs?
Did they do custom orders?

verktyg

For starters, about 1972 Gitane switched lugs on the TdF models from long point Prugnat lugs to medium point Bocama lugs.

Prugnat Type "S" lugs

Medium point Bocama Professional lugs

In mid 1974 Gitane started using long point Bocama Professional lugs on some of their top models. They probably continued using them until maybe the early 80s when short point lugs became the style.

All of the long point Bocama lugs I've seen on Gitanes have had cutouts stamped into the points.

Long point Bocama Professional lugs with cutouts

Disregard what Stephan said about forks. He was talking about how the tubes are finished at the droputs.

The feature to look at is the full sloping fork crown. The style on your frame was most frequently used on British bikes like Raleigh Pros and many others. They were made of roughly cast steel and required a lot of work grinding and filing to make them presentable.

Raleigh full sloping crown

Same style crown on the MTB I built for myself reflecting many hours of work to thin it down

I don't recall ever seeing a Gitane or many other French made bikes with this style crown.

In the early 80s Vitus started making full sloping investment cast steel fork crowns in the Cinelli style. Gitane started using those crowns of their top models in the early 80s.

Cinelli crown

Vitus Arcor Microfusion fork crown

Another view of a Vitus Arcor crown on my 1984 Gitane Super Corsa showing short point Bocama lugs

So, what do we have?

Except for some very rare British bikes made from the first generation Reynolds 753 tubing which was only available in metric sizes, very few British , or Italian bikes would have been built with metric tubes.

Very few British or Italian bikes would have been made with Bocama long point lugs.

The fork crown style was used mainly by British and US builders.

The finish on the fork blade, seat and chain stay ends is a style used by the Italians and later by British and US frame builders.

The finish treatment on the seat stay tops shows a lot of work.

The Campy 1010B dropouts didn't become readily available until about 1986.

Bocama lugs came with and without the reinforcing rings on the head tube lugs. Many custom builders removed them. They were just held in place with several spot welds.

A few smaller French makes used the long point Bocama Professional lugs on their top models between 1973 and the late 1970s. The reason they weren't used on lower end production models was that the points tended to lift off of the tube during brazing and had to be carefully pushed back done to prevent a gap in the braze.

After the mid 70s Bocama Professional lugs usually had some sort of cutouts in the points, 'V"s, diamonds, round holes and triangles like shown above.

So my opinion is that you may have a good quality French frame that was either modified or repaired at some point. The rear triangle could have been replaced and or the fork too. It happened!

velomateo

Chas, thanks so much for all the time you have invested in helping me with this and your very knowledgeable and detailed replies. You know the mountain bike you built shares a lot of similarities to my frame...you didn't make this frame did you? Anyway I will keep looking for an answer. I mainly wanted to know because I am planning to repaint it and wanted to try to acquire correct decals, if possible. Thanks again.