gitaneusa.com Forum Index » Vintage Gitane » Gitane TdF or Super Corsa? Goto page 1, 2  Next    View previous topic :: View next topic  Gitane TdF or Super Corsa?   Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:30 pm Kinst VonSterga Joined: 26 May 2008 Posts: 153 Location: Hillsboro, Oregon USA Seems like an eternity until a frame my size appears on craig's list and/or ebay. Hopefully I'm not having to bid against a fellow forum member, so wish me luck as I would love to turn this into a fully restored club rider for the weekends! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350435859853&rvr_id=207372549610&mfe=sidebar Now for my other Gitane in limbo, its my 3rd year of waiting for it to return from the painters (and yes, squat was done to it). Thought I would get the darn things back "as-was" about 3 months ago, but 2 more false promises and I'm still waiting for the frames return. Sadness, as the feeling is akin to being scammed. Last edited by Kinst VonSterga on Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:17 pm; edited 1 time in total   Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:04 pm scozim Joined: 26 Sep 2008 Posts: 629 Location: Ellensburg, WA I saw that the other day. Good luck - too tall for me. Would love to see it have a home here. _________________ 1984 Gitane Sprint 1984 Gitane Tour de France mid-1970's Gitane Olympic Plus many more http://eburgcycling.blogspot.com TDF on Ebay   Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:24 pm trials guy Joined: 30 Jan 2009 Posts: 75 Location: Woodacre Calif Good luck with that also. I saw that as well and wondered if it would sneak under the radar. It looks like it will go big; some very ratty looking TDF's have finished for astonishingly high dollars on EBay lately...   Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:46 am trials guy Joined: 30 Jan 2009 Posts: 75 Location: Woodacre Calif Kinst - Did you end up with your bike?   Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:42 pm Kinst VonSterga Joined: 26 May 2008 Posts: 153 Location: Hillsboro, Oregon USA trials guy wrote: Kinst - Did you end up with your bike? Paid about $100 more than I planned (hopefully I wasn't competing/bidding up against fellow Gitane/forum members), but was successful today ... as I've been trying to find this frame size/color with campy dropouts for quite some time. The bicycle will be treated very well and will experience lots of club-ride mileage . I'll probably swap out some of the non-campy parts with spare parts left-over after restoring my wife's super corsa from last year. After it's all cleaned up and reassembled, I'll be sure to post some pictures of it to the forum gallery. Another Gitane saved from a possible "fixie-demise" ... still amazed that the fixie fad is still lingering on in the bicycling world as there's probably a hole the size of Lake Superior full of cut off derailleur hangers ;-( Gitane Decals   Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:16 pm verktyg Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 2814 Location: SF Bay Area re: Gitane seat tube and down tube decals. During the bike boom Gitanes were so poorly packed that we were provided with stacks of Gran Sport decal sets plus cans on all of the colors of Gitane paint for touch up. The wheels were free to roll around in the boxes. Much of the "patina" on early 70s Gitanes resulted from damage during shipping. They came out of the boxes that way! First off, we thought that the silver foil seat tube decals used on Interclubs, TdFs and SCs were gaudy! Secondly when the Mylar foil got shredded by the unprotected wheel axles it looked like crap on a new bike so we peeled the damaged ones off. I peeled off all of the extraneous decals off of my gold 1972 Super Corsa except the head tube badge and the Gitane decals on the down tube. I also put a blue Gran Sport decal on the seat tube like on your new bike. Funny thing, these days, I've spent $40 each to restore the foil decals on my TdFs and SCs! _________________ Chas. SF Bay Area, CA USA ============== 1984 Criterium 1969 TdF 1971 TdF 1974 TdF 1984 TdF x 2 Bikes 1970 SC 1971 SC 1972 SC 1984 SC 1984 Team Pro 1985 Professional 1990s Team Replica   Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:54 am mikkla Joined: 23 Aug 2010 Posts: 87 Location: The Netherlands Well congrats then!! Post some pictures once you get your machine. Some other thing, you send a frame to be repainted. But that has been !!three!! years now?? Amazing that some peeps do that _________________ Greetings from the Netherlands!! Re: Gitane Decals   Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:32 pm Kinst VonSterga Joined: 26 May 2008 Posts: 153 Location: Hillsboro, Oregon USA verktyg wrote: re: Gitane seat tube and down tube decals. During the bike boom Gitanes were so poorly packed that we were provided with stacks of Gran Sport decal sets plus cans on all of the colors of Gitane paint for touch up. ... I also put a blue Gran Sport decal on the seat tube like on your new bike. Funny thing, these days, I've spent $40 each to restore the foil decals on my TdFs and SCs! LOL ... the bicycle just arrived and I think you're right about the decals. A gran sport seat-tube decal was placed on both the seat-tube and the down-tube. The dropouts and fork-tips are campy, including brakes, derailleurs, headset, BB, cranks, etc. Its a full 531 frameset + forks, and the bicycle seems to be in great shape and the brazing/lug work is exceptionally clean (as compared to some of my other Gitanes that weren't so polished). I don't know if it's a SC or high-end TdF, either variety is fine. I'll be dismantling/cleaning it up over the weekend. The wheels aren't original to the bicycle, so they're getting swapped out immediately for a campy/mavic e2 set. The best thing is that the frame is a perfect fit for me, which I'm very happy about. Time to start purging my stock of smaller 60cm (c-t-t) Gitane frames Club rides ... here I come! Last edited by Kinst VonSterga on Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:18 pm; edited 1 time in total Re: Gitane Decals   Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:21 pm verktyg Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 2814 Location: SF Bay Area Great that you found a frame your size. I'd heard from owners that the 62cm (24 1/2"0 and 64cm (25 1/2") SC and TdF frames rode and handled well. I wouldn't know as I bottom out on a 58cm frame! Kinst VonSterga wrote: I don't know if it's a SC or high-end TdF To say that Gitane never did something would be imprudent but regarding the Foil Decal era bikes, I've never seen any reference to "high end" TdFs. The TdFs were spec'd with Simplex dropouts but for whatever reason a few came with Campagnolo rear dropouts (and occasionally Campy fork ends too). Gitane even made some European TdF and similar frames with Huret rear dropouts. Late 60s European model TdF with Huret rear dropouts and painted rear triangle. Early 70s TdF with Campagnolo rear dropout. Late 60s early 70s Simplex with the "horn" on the left dropout. In the European offerings the Champion Du Monde model was above the TdF and below the Super Olympic and Olympic (Super Corsa) models. I've seen TdFs with Simplex, Huret and even Campy fork ends too. The fork ends didn't always match the rear dropouts either. It apparently wasn't a big thing to have "matching cuffs and collars" back then. During the bike boom it was mostly an issue of availability and how fast they could push bikes out the door! Many Super Corsas came with Huret fork ends. Huret fork ends are almost identical to Campys. Here's a picture of the Huret fork ends on my 1970 Super Corsa. Campagnolo 1010 Forkend The determining factor between the TdF models and the Super Corsa models was the headset. Super Corsa, Super Olympic, Olympic and Grand Turisme models had longer steering tubes to fit the 41mm stack height of Campagnolo headsets. Tour de France and Champion du Monde models came with shorter steering tubes to fit the 33mm stack height on Stronglight P3 headsets. All of the above models had full Reynolds 531 frames. Most of those frames came with "fish mouth" or scallop cut ends on the seat stays, chain stays and fork blades where the dropouts attached. BTW, almost all of the post 1973 Gitane frames that I've seen with Huret honeycomb rear dropouts had Simplex forged fork ends??? Last edited by verktyg on Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:12 pm; edited 1 time in total _________________ Chas. SF Bay Area, CA USA ============== 1984 Criterium 1969 TdF 1971 TdF 1974 TdF 1984 TdF x 2 Bikes 1970 SC 1971 SC 1972 SC 1984 SC 1984 Team Pro 1985 Professional 1990s Team Replica Re: Gitane Decals   Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:16 pm Kinst VonSterga Joined: 26 May 2008 Posts: 153 Location: Hillsboro, Oregon USA verktyg wrote: To say that Gitane never did something would be imprudent but regarding the Foil Decal era bikes, I've never seen any reference to "high end" TdFs. If a full 531 frame/fork with campy dropouts and fork tips (having all campy nuovo record parts) is neither a high-end modified TdF or Super Corsa, then have I misspoken? Re: Gitane Decals   Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:36 am verktyg Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 2814 Location: SF Bay Area Kinst VonSterga wrote: verktyg wrote: To say that Gitane never did something would be imprudent but regarding the Foil Decal era bikes, I've never seen any reference to "high end" TdFs. If a full 531 frame/fork with campy dropouts and fork tips (having all campy nuovo record parts) is neither a high-end modified TdF or Super Corsa, then have I misspoken? Not really misspoken, just an ongoing discussion with an attempt to differentiate the models for historical accuracy if you can even talk about French bikes in the same sentence. The defining factor between a Tour de France frame with Campy dropouts and a Super Corsa frame is the headset and steerer length (also the model stickers on the down tubes - most of the time). ALL TdFs I've ever seen or heard of had Stronglight P3 headsets (unless replaced with something else). ALL Super Corsas came with Campy headsets. Stronglight stack height = 33mm, Campy stack height = 41mm. That's 8mm difference! Pre-1974 Tour de France and Super Corsa frames are going to ride and handle the same except maybe for minor differences in the headset quality which might show up in slow speed turns. Same thing with the European Super Olympic, Olympic and Champion du Monde models. The Tour de France was originally designed as an upper mid price range all French bike to go head to head against the Peugeot PX-10 on the world wide market. Other French bike makers had similar all French models. Italian made components faced high import duties in France and were limited to the luxury/vanity/professional market. All Campy equipped bikes were not that common! The Super Corsa was Gitane's all Campy model (all Campy usually meant everything but the brakes). Most of the European sporting bike makers listed an all Campy model in their catalogs but very few of these bikes were ever produced in France. I've seen a few all Campy TdFs that were upgraded by their owners. I was talking with someone today who worked at a bike shop in the early 70s and he did just that. His bike (with Tour de France stickers on the down tube) came with Campy dropouts and all French components including a Stronglight P3 headset. He replaced it with a Campy headset leaving out the washer and front brake hanger (he was only able to screw the lock nut on a few turns because the steerer was still too short). BTW, he still rides his TdF and it's still his favorite bike! During the bike boom in the early 70s, the demand for frame parts and bike components increased over 10 fold. Substitutions were De rigueur! Italian made Campy forged dropouts in France probably cost 3 times more than French made Simplex and Huret forged dropouts. But, if Campy dropouts were all they had, that's what they used. In 1976 we asked Bertin how much extra it would cost to use Campy dropouts to replace the stamped steel ones on the mid range bikes they were making for us. They said it would be about $15 additional per frame but they could provide dropouts made by the same company that made them for Campy except stamped Milremo - for $6 a set! Occasionally you will see a TdF with forged Simplex Ref 881 rear dropouts that were made without integral derailleur hangers (not the ones that some idiot cut off with a hacksaw!)! These were most likely substituted for the standard Simplex dropouts used on TdFs because of availability issues. I've seen several other styles like these used too. In the early 70s some absolute idiot published an article in one of the US bike magazines on how to mount a Campy rear derailleur on a bike with Simplex dropouts. He recommended cutting the hanger off with a hacksaw and using a "claw" style derailleur hanger! There was an easier way: file a notch in the "banjo" part of the Simplex derailleur and run a M10x1 or M10x26TPI tap through the 9mm hole. 10 to 15 minutes IF you know what you are doing! Clear as mud eh? _________________ Chas. SF Bay Area, CA USA ============== 1984 Criterium 1969 TdF 1971 TdF 1974 TdF 1984 TdF x 2 Bikes 1970 SC 1971 SC 1972 SC 1984 SC 1984 Team Pro 1985 Professional 1990s Team Replica Riddle Solved on the actual frame/model   Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:14 pm Kinst VonSterga Joined: 26 May 2008 Posts: 153 Location: Hillsboro, Oregon USA Okay, I've dismantled the frame and removed all the campy parts. Some unusual things pop up, namely no sloppy lug-work (I guess some of the Gitane brazers took pride in the work they performed)! The inside tubes within the lugs themselves, have ample brazing coming through uniformly around each tube/lug-hole diameter. And no clumps of brazing material found anywhere on the outside of the lug/tube connection points, very clean. The seattube is 60cm c-t-c or 61.0 c-t-t. Is this a standard Gitane frame size? Regardless if it is or isn't, it fits me like a glove which is very cool. Based on the explanation provided in the above post, I guess my question is finally answered on what I just purchased. It's an official Gitane Gran Sport built with gas-piping that was assembled together with plumbers putty)! Now its time to clean her up and install some axle adjustment-stops into the backside of the rear campy dropouts and it'll be good to go. Never noticed the steerer tube markings on my previous Gitanes, but it is stamped "Nervor"? Answers plus history   Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:23 pm verktyg Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 2814 Location: SF Bay Area Hi Lenny, You have a GEN-U-WINE Super Corsa (or Super Olympic/Olympic). Answers: 1. Some Gitane frames were very well brazed while others had extremely sloppy workmanship. On the models below the Interclub, Gitane used very coarse grit to sand blast away the flux and excess braze material. It got most of the slop but left an pitted surface on the tubes. Gitane tried to compensate by using a thick layer of white primer/filler to smooth out the surface. The thin top color coat of paint easily scratched and chipped. With the exception of a very few top models, until the mid 70s the European bicycle industry paid very little attention to cosmetics on production model bike frames. After that pressure from the Japanese bike makers forced changes. Lugs, fork crowns bottom brackets, dropouts and such were used just as they came out of bulked packed boxes. The only time they saw a file was when a component was too banged up to fit a tube! Here's a closeup picture of the head tube on my recently acquired 1970 Super Corsa. Notice how bulged the head tube is between the top and bottom lugs. That was probably caused by a combination of over heating and the tubes being brazed under stress. Is this going effect the handling or frame life? Probably not if the frame is properly aligned. If you think some Gitanes had bad cosmetics, you should look at some of the entry level Raleighs from that era! Early 70s mid level Raleigh Competitions were exceptionally BAD! Remember, the French built bikes to ride, not look at! BTW, I inspected your wife's gold frame after the paint was removed and I was impressed by the clean workmanship on that frame. 2. Nervor steering tubes, Gitane used them on most of their bikes throughout the late 60s to late 70s. Do you realize how many Centimes a Reynolds 531 steerer cost? You could buy a pile of croissants for the difference in cost! I've seen very few problems with Nervor steerers. They were made of butted steel tubing while Peugeot and Motobecane used a cheap piece of seamed straight wall "pipe" with a sleeve brazed into the bottom at the fork crown! Here's a fork from a Peugeot U08 showing the seam. Also notice the seams down the back of the U08 fork blades. They were made of brazed together rolled sheet metal not steel tubing! 3. Frame sizes, these were all NOMINAL. Gitane measured frames from the center of the crank spindle to the top of the seat tube. The "standard" sizes during the 1970s were: 50cm, 54cm, 57cm, 60cm, 62cm and 64cm The approximate inch sizes (for marketing purposes) were: 19 1/2", 21 1/2", 22 1/2", 23 1/2", 24 1/2" and 25 1/2" - all NOMINAL! I had an early 70s Gitane Gran Tourisme touring bike with a 53cm frame and I have a 1974 Foil Decal TdF with a 61cm frame. YMMV This picture from the 1980 Gitane French catalog shows frames being brazed. Notice there is very little in the way of fixturing to hold the tubes in place. With this kind of assembly it's easy to get variances in frame sizes. Perhaps adjustments to seat tube lengths were made to compensate for different length seat stays??? When you are riding hard, you shouldn't notice anything but the top of the bars, stem, brake levers and front tire! BTW, way back in the day, I kept my first Gitanes in my living room and spent lots of time admiring them. _________________ Chas. SF Bay Area, CA USA ============== 1984 Criterium 1969 TdF 1971 TdF 1974 TdF 1984 TdF x 2 Bikes 1970 SC 1971 SC 1972 SC 1984 SC 1984 Team Pro 1985 Professional 1990s Team Replica   Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:55 am Christophe Joined: 06 Nov 2010 Posts: 29 Location: France Hi everyone ! Sorry to interfere in your specialists conversation, but i'd like to get back to the pics of this bike on ebay. Did you notice the triple cranckset ? It seems to have a really small third chainring, something like 24 teeth . I've never seen such a 5O something- 40 something - 20 something cranckset on a roadbike. Was that common on certain models ? I like the idea, but what for the front derailer ? How does it manage with the huge gap between third and middle ring ? _________________ Christophe   Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:17 pm verktyg Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 2814 Location: SF Bay Area Christophe wrote: Hi everyone ! Sorry to interfere in your specialists conversation, but i'd like to get back to the pics of this bike on ebay. Did you notice the triple cranckset ? It seems to have a really small third chainring, something like 24 teeth . I've never seen such a 5O something- 40 something - 20 something cranckset on a roadbike. Was that common on certain models ? I like the idea, but what for the front derailer ? How does it manage with the huge gap between third and middle ring ? Huh? What bike on eBay? You may have posted to the wrong message thread? To answer your question, TA triple cranks with 50-40-26 or 28 teeth chainrings were common on French touring bikes. _________________ Chas. SF Bay Area, CA USA ============== 1984 Criterium 1969 TdF 1971 TdF 1974 TdF 1984 TdF x 2 Bikes 1970 SC 1971 SC 1972 SC 1984 SC 1984 Team Pro 1985 Professional 1990s Team Replica Gitane TdF or Super Corsa?     gitaneusa.com Forum Index » Vintage Gitane You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum All times are GMT - 8 Hours   Page 1 of 2   Goto page 1, 2  Next All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First  Select a forum Gitane USA----------------Vintage GitaneGitane RacingModern GitanePro Racing - Classics/Giro/Tour....Owner Gallery   Powered by phpBB © 2001-2004 phpBB Group Designed for Trushkin.net | Themes Database.