gitaneusa.com Forum Index » Vintage Gitane » TDF or Super Corsa?    View previous topic :: View next topic  TDF or Super Corsa?   Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:37 pm trials guy Joined: 30 Jan 2009 Posts: 75 Location: Woodacre Calif A question for the experts about this bike... My 1971 Gitane is equipped with Campy dropouts front and rear, Campy derailleurs, Stronglight 93 crank and a Stronglight headset; I assumed (because of the headset) that this was a TDF. Is it possible that it is a Super Corsa, or just a TDF that left the factory with Campy dropouts rather than the expected Simplex type? The head tube came with the full foil background overlaid with the traditional Gitane head tube decaL I'd always assumed I had a TDF here. Was this bike another example of Gitanes mix and match policy, or? Any input is appreciated. Thanks 1969 TdF   Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:49 pm verktyg Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 2814 Location: SF Bay Area Hi John, Very nice bike! No matter what kind of dropouts it's the headset that determines whether it's a Tour de France or a Super Corsa (European models included the Olympic and Champion Du Monde but that's a different mater). The TdF frames used Stronglight P3 headsets wit a ~33mm stack height. Super Corsas had Campy headsets with ~41mm stack height. How to measure the steering tube to determine stack height capacity. Measuring the headset stack height. Use a caged bearing and measure the top portion then the bottom and add the two. Factor in spacers plus front brake cable hanger if you use center pull brakes. Gitane only used foil on the head tub for a few years in the late 60s and only on the top models. Applying the foil must have been a time consuming procedure. I'm guessing your bike is a 1969 US model bike. The 1968 Mel Pinto price sheet states: TOUR DE FRANCE 10 speed Available in FEBRUARY 1969 I have to assume that the late 60s US TdFs didn't come into the country until then. Perhaps some of the first batch of US TdFs used Super Corsa frames with Campy dropouts and a shortened steering tube to fit the Stronglight P3 headset. Later TdFs used at least 3 different styles of Stronglight rear dropouts plus the occasional Campy dropouts, probably due to availability issues during the bike boom. The TdF front dropouts could have been Stronglight, Huret or even occasionally Campy. Here's one of my Super Corsas with Huret front dropouts. They were identical to campy dropouts The French market TdFs had only the 3 main tubes Reynolds 531. Some of them came with Huret Svelto derailleurs with Huret rear dropouts. Huret Svelto rear derailleur. Huret rear dropout. Simplex Dropouts that would have been used on those TdFs. Note the "horn" on the left dropout that helped guide the wheel in. Back then there were 3 styles of rear dropouts: Campy, Simplex and Huret. The derailleurs didn't interchange. You had to use a derailleur that matched the brand of dropout. The Campy derailleurs we most likely added by a bike shop or previous owner. It would have originally had Simplex Criterium derailleurs. Same with the leather saddle. My 1969 TdF showing the process of restoration: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28267220@N05/sets/72157623681212186/ _________________ Chas. SF Bay Area, CA USA ============== 1984 Criterium 1969 TdF 1971 TdF 1974 TdF 1984 TdF x 2 Bikes 1970 SC 1971 SC 1972 SC 1984 SC 1984 Team Pro 1985 Professional 1990s Team Replica TDF or ?   Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:51 am trials guy Joined: 30 Jan 2009 Posts: 75 Location: Woodacre Calif Hi Chas - Thanks for taking the time to pass along the wealth of information about the early Gitane bikes. I, as well as other Forum members, appreciate it tremendously. Loved seeing the price sheet from 1968; how is it possible that things were ever that inexpensive? The photos of your TDF restoration were fantastic - lots of improvement there! Can you recommend a good source for new sew-up tires (not too expensive); these are getting a bit scary looking... Thanks again for the information. TDF or?   Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:41 pm trials guy Joined: 30 Jan 2009 Posts: 75 Location: Woodacre Calif Chas, aside from the steerer tube length headset differences, were there any other differences between the SC and TDF frames aside from the dropouts used? John Re: TDF or ?   Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:45 am verktyg Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 2814 Location: SF Bay Area trials guy wrote: Loved seeing the price sheet from 1968; how is it possible that things were ever that inexpensive? Back then you could buy a VW Beetle for ~$1900 USD, a low end Chevy for about $2300! Bikes in the US were still considered "kid's toys"! Department store 10 speed "gas pipe" bikes sold for around $69.00. Like the 1968 price sheet shows, the entry level Gitane Gran Sport Luxe 10 speed had a list price (MSRP) of $94.50 with a cost of $62.00. Add about $8.00 for freight and you had a total cost of ~$80.00 for smaller bike dealers. Unless they were located near a University or other competitive location, many bike shops tended to sell bikes for what ever they could get for them. It wasn't uncommon for some smaller shops to get $115+ for an entry level model. During the bike boom of 1970-1974 the Gran Sport and similar entry level European bikes sold for $78 to $89 retail at larger shops. The big shops bought those kinds of bikes by the trailer load. Freight rates in the US were regulated at that time so a dealer buying a truck load of those bikes probably paid a total of ~$60.00 a bike. There wasn't a lot of profit margin in the bikes themselves. Shops made their money on accessories and service: kick stands were extra on some models, racks, spare tubes and tires, patch kits. lights and so on. So, out the door on a $79- $89 bike was at least $100 plus tax! Several other things, in the US, the Federal Minimum Wage in 1968 was $1.60 an hour! As I mentioned above, bikes were still viewed as toys. Most derailleur bikes were purchased by or with parental involvement for high school and college students. The idea of a bike being a viable form of transportation hadn't yet caught on. A $200 bike was an extreme expenditure! Bikes priced at $150 and up were usually purchased by bike aficionados or frequently by recently employed young adults (usually as impulse purchases). The first TdFs were priced at ~$250+. Many times these bikes were never ridden much and spent years in basements or garages. That's why they survived a trip to the crusher! trials guy wrote: Can you recommend a good source for new sew-up tires (not too expensive); these are getting a bit scary looking... The Yellow Jersey in Madison, WI sells their Servizio Corsa sewups for $19.95 each or 3 for $50.00! These are private label versions of the same tires sold by several of the big name brands. They're made in Thailand where most sewup come from today. They come in tan or black side walls. You can call them or buy online. http://www.yellowjersey.org/tt.html I recommend using Tufo Extreme Rim Tape. It's much easier and cleaner to apply. You need to remove the old rim cement off first. Also Tufo Tire Sealant works great both before and after a puncture. One last thing, unless you like getting a LOT of flats, keep your tire pressure below 100 PSI. Have fun... _________________ Chas. SF Bay Area, CA USA ============== 1984 Criterium 1969 TdF 1971 TdF 1974 TdF 1984 TdF x 2 Bikes 1970 SC 1971 SC 1972 SC 1984 SC 1984 Team Pro 1985 Professional 1990s Team Replica Re: TDF or?   Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:46 am verktyg Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 2814 Location: SF Bay Area trials guy wrote: Chas, aside from the steerer tube length headset differences, were there any other differences between the SC and TDF frames aside from the dropouts used? John Not really... Not on the early bikes. During the bike boom, the brazed on willow leaf seat stay caps were switched to swagged tops. The brazed-on rear brake cable bridges at the top of the seat stays were discontinued too. Around 1972 Gitane switched from long point Prugnat S4 lugs like on your bike to medium point Bocama lugs. They also switched to Nervex Dubois fork crowns (although they used 3-4 different crowns on occasion). I posted pictures of these features in a lot of my previous messages. _________________ Chas. SF Bay Area, CA USA ============== 1984 Criterium 1969 TdF 1971 TdF 1974 TdF 1984 TdF x 2 Bikes 1970 SC 1971 SC 1972 SC 1984 SC 1984 Team Pro 1985 Professional 1990s Team Replica   Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:23 am auchencrow Joined: 09 Oct 2011 Posts: 53 Location: Detroit John, Chas - Golly! What beautiful bikes! _________________ Auchen TDF or?   Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:26 pm trials guy Joined: 30 Jan 2009 Posts: 75 Location: Woodacre Calif Thanks Auchen! Where abouts are you in Detroit? I lived there until I was eleven (1968); out near Seven Mile and Beaverland. Just a short walk to the Rouge River and the old Edgewater Park. 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